I want justice for the death of the Tiger…she paid with her life because those young men
thought it would be fun to taunt her. They need to be held responsible for these tragic events.
They need to be punished and put in prison for a while or do lots of community service.
There should be cameras watching people – it’s bad enough that these animals have to
live their lives in prison let alone be taunted by some irresponsible humans…shame on them,
they should pay for the tiger and pay the parents of the lost young man. Don’t let them get
away with this. Tatiana was just being a tiger….shame on them!!!

How do you exactly “taunt” a tiger from over 15 to 20 away or more? Wave at it? Yell at it? Give it the finger? Tigers have one instinct: to hunt and kill, the fence was too low and it took a tragedy to figure it out. Drugs, alcohol, “Taunting” have nothing to do with it, it got out, period. I have been to many zoos, and the tigers and lions have 18 to 29 foot walls AND extra fencing borders, to keep the tigers from getting it OUT!

Curtdalton
what constitutes reasonable assurance the the Tigers cannot escape, I say it is a 18 foot wall to me a 12.5 what is anything but reasonable it is insane, the fact that No Tiger got out before simply means that the Zoo was lucky that none of them wanted out before, they are required to keep the Tigers captive regardless of why they might want out because what one person may consider reasonable another might consider to be rediculous.
A Tiger standing on his hind legs already can reach 11 feet, the fact is most Zoo’s are smart enough to have more than a 12.5 foot wall.

I agree w/ Curt regarding personal accountability. There is shared blame in this tragic story.
Yes, the walls of the tiger enclosure were not the regulated height and thus, the zoo does have some responsibility in the tiger being able to escape the enclosure.
But, if these boys thought that they had a right to shamelessly harm Tatiana by shooting things at her w/ a slingshot, they also share the blame as well.
The only honest entity in this whole matter was Tatiana, who was a tiger being a tiger.
If I were being shot at by some punks, I’d have a score to settle too.
It’s a shame that Tatiana had to be killed for being a tiger and doing what tigers do-defend themselves and their territory.

First, let me say I have patiently read every single comment on this blog and I am impressed with the level of intelligent dialog.

I can’t help but wonder where in the world does personal accountability come into play here? Sure, this is indeed a tragic situation. Very tragic. However, from what I have read, the ordeal these three “boys” have gone through is entirely self-inflicted.

Many have commented upon the height of the fence etc. etc. to attempt to shift negligence to the zoo. However, if these three “boys” had scaled a fence and entered a restricted area near let’s say, a PG&E power substation, (and one got fried by a 12,000 volt power line) we wouldn’t be castigating PG&E for the height of the fence. We would rightly place the blame where it belongs.

So, is a pissed-off tiger any less dangerous than a high voltage transformer?

No it isn’t.

Had these three been inside a power substation, the collective arguments would no doubt be much different and there would be serious discussions vis-à-vis the sanity of the three individuals. After all, everyone knows high voltage is dangerous!

So, who in their right mind (young or old) thinks an adult tiger is not dangerous?

The zoo is required to make every reasonable attempt to insure the animals and public is protected but no amount of engineering by anyone will make the zoo “idiot proof” and therein lies the problem.

Join us! Thanks.

myspace.com/rip_tatiana

Apparently more evidence is coming forward that this poor tiger was being unmercifully taunted by these three teenagers who have, according to the police, previous records of violence …being a high school teacher, I have seen so many violent, vicious teenagers that I feel nothing is beyond them…parents simply do not discipline their children, no matter what age and then wonder when something like this happens.

It is a disgrace that this wonderful tiger had to be killed and judging from the emails in San Francisco’s newspaper, the tiger will be mourned long after these thugs are forgotten.

Roman–

You are a nice person– I feel it! I would also go back to the zoo–

I have been really following this story because my husband is a retired zoo keeper. It’s difficult to point blame in this story.

This tiger had a history of being aggressive.
The walls were substandard even if the were recently inspected and were not flagged.
We don’t know if the boys taunted the tiger.

Tigers hated my husband. He tells on one that was at the back wall, he walked in and was, at he thought, far enough away from the cage when the tiger rushed the bars, slashed his arm and returned to the back wall before he could react.

Unless there are any eye-witnesses to this event, we only have speculation and what the surviving boys have to say…which may or may not be factual.

~Linda

Susan,
I sure did. It was a great feeling, and like I said a sad at the same time.
I want to go back to the zoo as soon as it opens to show my support. Despite the tragic events, I like the park, and the animals enough to continue visiting such locations.

Roman–

did you get to see these pictures here by you?

Susan

Oh my heck… blogging is SOOOO ADDICTING! I totally love it.

I’ve been blogging almost a year …. but, just recently started going to Greta’s and Adam’s blog.

I’m stay home mommy of a medically fragile 2 year old … so I don’t get out in the real world much at all … especially during the winter months (flu and RSV season)

so….
this is my way of visiting with adults.

Tammy and Dawn this is my second time blogging in my life so I got you by one.

Have a good night everyone and thanks for the spirited debate it was truly addicting.

Adam thanks for doing a good job of uncovering the facts from the fiction.

Dawn
My first time blogging too and you are right about addicting I got abosolutley nothing done in my house today. You are right about a reflection of the parent and the parents being responsible if the child is under age and yes these kids have probably done ridiculous crap like this before and there is no excuse for this type of behavior, but with that being said and as a mother too I think I will just follow what my grandmother told me a long time ago (and at the time I thought she was a religious nut) Instead of more hate and anger just pray for them and all others in their same situation. Thankfully none of us has to judge them….that is left up to someone a lot more qualified…..goodnight to you

I agree Tammy the world does stop when your child is hurt and nothing else matters at the time.
I personally would not critisize the dead boy’s parents, as you said they are most likely coping as best they can and whatever works for them is fine with me.
The parents of the survivers are probably just happy their kids are alive.

For the record, I am a parent. I am raising a respectful and responsible child.
If my child were to cause such damage, then I would take responsibility for the damages because my child’s actions are a reflection of me.
Yes, we all make mistakes and learn that actions have consequences also about trial and error.
We can’t continue to blame and point fingers at everyone else. It is time that we start taking responsibility for our actions and if you have an underaged child then the parent shares in that responsibility.
Those kids were not there to sightsee. There have probably been MANY times where they have been disrespectful of rules and property. It is unfortunate that he died, but it was a choice that he made when he provoked the animal out of the den.

Well, thank you for your responses and insights. I am off to bed. This is my first time blogging and boy it can be addictive. Wishing you a wonder-filled holiday season.
“Peace out”

you are dead on John44…..I have two teenagers at the moment my daughter is 13 and currently bugging me about going to the movies and my son is 16 and the poster child for a teen boy. If his buddies are around theres no telling what kind of mischief they will get into. Do I think they would do something like this? I would like to believe I raised him better especially as far as animals go, but you can never say never. I especially agree with the idea of losing one of my children for any reason….the tiger would be the least of their problems…..one pissed off, over the edge, completely insane, obsessive mama would be your worst nightmare and unless you have or have had kids it is impossible for you to imagine. My son was riding saddle broncs in October when I finally convinced my husband to come and watch him ( my husband did not like the idea of him doing this since it is so dangerous) since this is something he’s good at and as parents you need to support them, well we walked up to him laying there out cold, the ambulance on the way, he woke to convulsions, very confused, now the helicopter is on the way and off to the trauma center we go. We really lucked out that day, Jr was released with a major concussion and some bruising but would make a full recovery. The moral to my story is this: The feelings that went through me that day are unthinkable and I do not wish them on my worst enemy, not knowing the fate of your child and watching them fly off and you can’t go is the most helpless feeling in the world to any parent. You need to know that Some kids live for that adrenaline rush like my son. Some do this is constructive ways and others usually with little to no support in destructive ways. But you need to remember that it doesn’t matter what your child has done as a mom or dad the world stops when it comes to them so if the parents want to call their son a HERO and that is what they need to cope tonight…..please as a mom let them! Either way mistakes can be and are made everyday by grown adults as well as teenagers. Hey for that fact I guess I can be blamed for letting my son ride saddle broncs at 16 years old. Boys are boys and that doesn’t make what they might have done right but it darn sure does not mean they or anyone else should have to pay with their life

The fact is the bond between a GOOD parent and child is instinctual and is more powerfull than you could imagine.
Unless of course you are a GOOD parent, in which case you know what I am talking about.

Dawn you don’t have kids do you, I am 45 and have a 7 year old son, if he were to be killed for ANY reason the offending entity would be dealing with me and it would be very ugly I can assure you.
They would be better off facing a Tiger than me.

Dawn
Thank you for the comment….You are probably right about the boys’ actions but until that can be confirmed somehow someway I just can’t and won’t pass judgement, none of us truly know what happened or even if they were tauting the tiger, it does however I have to say look that way especially since now they are being hostile towards police and investigators. That to me is wrong and should be a crime in itself, if they are charged with anything I would think it should be that. As far as anything else I agree with John44 losing your life, being disfigured, and the trauma that they are sure to go through is far enough punishment for being an idiot. (if that is what happened) As far as the “hero” thing goes maybe thats the only way the family can deal with the loss of their son at this time; I don’t know I am not in their shoes, but regardless of anyone’s actions provoking the tiger…… What do you call a human being who would stand there and try to get one of the most deadliest animals off their friend? Maybe “hero” is the wrong word if their previous actions caused the tiger to attack, but since we are all human and make mistakes….some worse than others……and we were all not the smartest of teenagers at one point in our life……and some people didn’t have the best role models as parents…..I ask you what would you call the boy who did not run for his life regardless of the circumstances but rather stood by his friend and try to get this deadly animal off of him? I agree with you 100% that it is a true tragedy for the tiger, she really did deserve better. That is where I get upset with the zoo officials, they know the public and how they behave she should have had a better chance

John, with reading Adam’s latest article and learning that the boys are not cooperating with police and have had past disrespects for the law..NO, I don’t think they have experienced any punishment. Being hurt is the result of them putting themselves in harms’ way. I think the parents of Sousa should be held responsible b/c their son was underage and not an adult. The boys caused this whole incident and if they jumped the fence and taunted the tiger to the point of aggression there should be a way to punish so they know what they did was wrong. They should NOT be allowed to profit from any of this..via future book deals or lawsuits or made out to be heros or praised in any way. They are NOT the victim, the tiger is!!
So I would like to see the California law enforcement find a way to charge these boys and their families for the damages/expenses caused to the zoo and made an example of how NOT to act.

Dawn I agree the boys were in the wrong but do you not think that dying and being severely mauled and possibly disfigured is punishment enough for the boys ?
I think they have learned their lesson wouldn’t you think.
I would not like to see any charges brought against them.

Thank you for the responses. You made some very good points Tammy and John and others too
Maybe it takes something like this to make an awareness that these animals have the potential to be dangerous. You never think when you are at the zoo that an animal will actually get out.
Maybe these zoos need to get with the times b/c people of yesterday didn’t behave like malicious and wild idiots!! The point I was really wanting to drive to is that the boys were in the wrong and they need to be punished for their bad choices, NOT made out to be a hero. That is what really got me today.

So Yes the zoos need to make their zoos safe, but people need to get back to the basics and be more RESPECTABLE and take responsibility for their actions.

…we need a theme? how ’bout on STUPID DAY they lower the walls in all the habitats, then, record, can, and show it on reality tv….the ratings will fly higher than that cat!

What if the Tiger threw the shoe inside the fence during the attack along with some blood ?
It could very well have happened, there is no proof that anyone was actually on the other side of the fence.
only that possibly someone was standing on the railing that is part of the fence.

2 of the young men are alive and able to speak. I’m sure they have been asked what they were doing prior to the attack… if they saw the animal escape …. which one of them was “MISSING A SHOE”…(since a shoe and blood had been found inside the fence). I believe the questions have been asked and answered…I am just not sure if they were answered truthfully. The police have those answers… but because there will be many lawsuits in this case, no one wants to be the one to leak the answers to the press.

JLB- Tatiana was born and raised in captivity as most zoo animals are, she wasn’t plucked out of the wild. The reason for having tigers in zoos is not just for people to gawk at, they’re also there for breeding purposes as there are roughly a thousand of them left on this planet. about 600 in zoos and about 400 in the wild.

If a tiger stands on it’s hind legs it’s between 10-13ft tall depending on it’s size. So if the wall is only 12.5 ft high it wouldn’t need anything to help it climb out. All it would have to do jump up grab onto the top and pull itself out. My question as I’m sure alot of people are asking, what happened on Christmas night that didn’t happen any night before then that made her jump that wall ?

I have one more response to the fact that the habitat has been that way for years and the cat was 4 years old. I do not know a lot about tigers but I do know this about animals……..a horse for instance from my experience a two year old horse can be worked and trained but you are always remembering that they are just a colt and can act like a little kid, (throw fits) when the horse is 3 you’ve been riding him for awhile and he’s doing great you get use to the idea that he’s trained and does what he’s told and you forget he’s only 3. Now you’re riding him and he’s 4 still very young in the horse world but he’s been great for a couple of years for you so you do not expect any problems but then one day he just starts bucking maybe rearing up on you and all this time he’s never ever bucked you look for the cause of this outburst/tantrum ……..and then you remember he’s only 4 still a juvenile and just acting stupid; (maybe like a teenager) So who’s to say even though the tiger has never ever tried anything like this before (so many thinking the wall was good in height) couldn’t have throwing a tantrum. I heard she was only 4 doesn’t that still make her a juvenile in the tiger world? When someone asks me if my dogs bite I always respond the same way………they haven’t yet but dogs do bite! The tiger had never jumped and tried to attack yet …..but tigers do jump very high and tigers do attack!

Dawn I am not on the boys side, they were wrong and I think they paid the price for their stupidity, but it is well known that a Tiger can jump 16 feet high and about 25 feet wide so Tatiana did not need any help in getting out, all of the experts have already commented that a Tiger could scale 12.5 feet without much trouble.
In fact there have already been Tigers that have scaled 16 foot fences even apparently at another Zoo.
Animals like people can be unpredictable so you have to admit that the Zoo is responsible for making enclosure’s escape proof.
The fact that the boys were in the wrong does not let the Zoo off of the hook for not having an escape proof enclosure.
Once again I am not on the boys side, I am on the Tigers side and I think the Zoo was negligent.
I don’t think the boys were actually in the Tigers habitat even if they were on the other side of the railing, I think the Tigers habitat starts in the ditch/moat the Tigers are allowed to go into the ditch/moat but not above it and out of it.
I believe that the railing it not far from the ditch/moat edge, and I personally do not think anyone of them was hanging their legs into the ditch/moat, but possible standing above it, which I think is only a few feet from the railing.

Dawn
Just like you said the tigers have probably heard baby cries and whistles before and never reacted…true. 5 year olds would probably not enter restricted areas or you would like to think their parents wouldn’t let them. Now that one is funny…..Most 5 year olds go wherever they can, however with parental intelligence and good supervision they most likely wouldn’t even get near restricted areas, but like I stated earlier the average “joe public parent” either does not watch their kids or they think everything they do is so darn cuuuutttteee! I have been visiting zoos since I was a very little girl and now at 35 I still go, whenever I travel across the US I visit every zoo I can and I have to tell you it is very unfortunate how kids and THEIR parents behave.
I too do not want the zoo held liable for idiot’s actions, but that is assuming that they really did do something bad; throwing items, yelling, crawling over fences……who knows? What we do know is this THE TIGER WAS ABLE TO ESCAPE! For whatever reason she was still able to GET OUT, which caused many lives to be at stake. Who did what….who climbed where……who threw something in……who took a friend up on a dare…..who tried to help who…….is the friend a hero……should they be caged……you are right about a couple of points….maybe extra staff around to protect the dangerous animal habitats and cameras would be a great idea. I think like I stated earlier it would have just been nice if a qualified zoo keeper could have been around to tranquilize the cat before the yound man was killed, others mauled and then the cat herself having to be destroyed. Should the zoo have to babysit idiots (if in case that is what they were) and make sure nothing bad happens near dangerous (like you said) habitats? Well my answer to that is yes they should. I also have raised German Shepherds and done plenty of bite work and training with them to know that even though they are not a wild animal they can be dangerous. I took every precaution for their safetly as well as others
Now I am not saying that the tigers should have tops, bottoms, and sides on their cages…..what I am saying is that under the worst of circumstances; (meaning bad behavior by the public) they should never have been able to GET OUT. Do I think the zoo intended for this to happen? NO way I think they are as mortified as everyone else, but that still does not change the fact that for whatever reason (and none are good enough for me) that tiger was able to GET OUT.
You were very right when you said if you play with fire you take the chance you are going to get burned and everyone here did……didn’t they…..including the zoo unfortunately. The beautiful endangered tiger wasn’t even protected. Everyone lost…the victims, their families, the zoo, the public…everyone!
Don’t you see……..when you deal with the public you take big risks……you have to look at every possible detail….because just like a wild animal will follow their instincts to attack…….some human beings have the incredible ability to go way far past stupid…..and if for nothing else “the zoo” in this case needed to be better prepared for the tiger and other patrons, and this is where the big problem was…..the police responded before the zoo officials and then the zoo officials didn’t even know if all the tigers had escaped, how can you just not know where your endangered dangerous animals are? So once again I say…..If in fact the boys were taunting the tiger and they shouldn’t have been it still does not change the fact that the tiger was able to GET OUT causing many peoples lives to be put at stake.

that is why there are museums of natural history…for the daft among us. bad decisions always have bad consequences. Tragic, but those guys got theirs. We need an eye witness account, elephants have long memories…perhaps a visit to thier quarters by the investigative team would prove helpful.

You don’t know that there wasn’t any help. If they boys threw something into the den to allow the tiger to get out, there was news about some type of board?
I just think that this enclosure has been this way for MANY years and nothing like this has occurred before.
It is now being told that these boys have a record of malicious behavior and are not co-operating. They must have done something to assist the animal out or they tormented these tigers to the point of serious fight or flight.
If there is someone standing guard this would not happen. No zoo patrons would be allowed to enter an animal’s habitat. They were trespassing.
Maybe now that one has been able to get out they need to make some adjustments, so in that way I agree with you, John. Because there is now a path of escape.
But these juvenile delinquents need to be charged for their trespassing and held liable for the death of an endangered species and lost revenue to the zoo.
They took their lives in their own hands when they climbed that fence and entered the tigers domain. They challenged the tiger and lost. It was their own stupidity that caused their own death and injury.

I am still in defense of the zoo. I guess we will have to agree to disagee.
Like I said earlier, maybe this experience will cause someone who is as idiotic like these boys are to think twice before taunting and provoking an animal at the zoo or elsewhere.

I can’t believe people are blaming th zoo and the tiger. What happened to personal responsibility? Blame everyone else but yourself. These boys are responsible for their own actions. That is what separates Humans from Animals, our ability to think and make intelligent decisions. The tiger is an animal which will follow it’s instincts. Obviously there will be lawsuits galore because of our society’s need to shift blame to someone else, “it’s everyone else’s fault and not mine” mentality. There are soo many damn laws in the books to protect people from themselves. What do you think common sense will tell you in this situation? I feel bad for the tiger and the zoo. I sympathize with the family but we all reap what we sow.

I am amazed when mankind decides that it needs to take wild animals out of their natural environment, put them on public display, often times mistreating them and taunting them, and then scratching their heads and asking what went wrong when something like this happens! I frankly lost all sympathy for the father of the son that was lost when he stated during an interview…so what if they taunted the tiger.

I tend to agree with John44. Something was wrong at the zoo. If people could easily get into the impound unnoticed and the tiger could get out that easily, something just ain’t right at the zoo.

Michael: I am old enough to remember zoos like prisions too, but that was only about 15 years ago.

Dawn the Zoo will definetly have to make the wall higher there is No doubt about that regardless of cameras, I do not think the Tiger exibit will open again untill they make the wall higher.
A Tiger or any dangerouse animal cannot be able to escape under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES regardless of why it might want out.
Tatiana has not been at this Zoo very long so we do not know what kind of annoyances she has been exposed to in the short time she has been there.
Regardless of why tatiana wanted out the real issue is that she should not have been able to get out under any circumstances, the Zoo is liable for her being able to get out, and yes the boys were wrong for taunting her but that is not a crime punishable by death for them or the cats.
The Zoo is responsible for keeping the animals in their habitats under ALL circumstances, Tatiana got out on her own with no help, that is not acceptable.

I’m old enough to remember when zoos were like prisons. It was not really a pleasant experience for me when I was a kid. A big push to make zoos more like natural habitats for the animals took place at some point and that really changed the aesthetics.

Patty
Thx, yes Refresh I know. I was asking about comments in older posts/articles; if there was an easy way to see if new comments were added there since I last read it.

LOL thanks Michael for the lyrics of that song. Some of it sounded familiar, but not sure if I have heard it. I usually don’t recognize a song until I actually hear it.

Need to take a lil break from the computer, my back is starting to hurt from sitting here too long. Probably have to sift thru a zillion new posts when I return tho. lol Altho, I should be going to bed as it is after midnight here, but I doubt that’ll happen.

Oh and fyi…yes, I know I am misspelling words such as thru and tho. hehehe I shorten anything I can. lol

Roman’s pictures really show what a beauty that animal was. What a sad situation this became in a matter of minutes…..

If the enclosure is like our Zoo and many others I have seen, what it would look like is you have the area where the Tigers/Lions are then it drops off into a 33 foot wide ditch we are calling a moat even though there is no water in it but it is capable of holding water, the other side of the ditch/moat is the sheer 12.5 foot concrete wall, so it is actually the other half of the ditch/moat at the top of the wall a short distance away from the edge is a 4 foot metal railing that keeps people from going to the edge of the ditch/moat depending on what you want to call it.
If one wanted to they could climb the 4 foot metal railing and even jump into the 12.5 foot deep ditch/moat but if you did that you could not climb back out you would be stuck in the enclosure with the Tigers/Lions.
The Ditch/Moat was wide enough but should have been dug deeper say 18 to 20 feet instead of 12.5 feet
The way I understand it the only thing that really separates the Tigers/Lions from the patrons is the 33 foot wide 12.5 foot high ditch/moat, and a small 4 foot courtesy fence that is really designed to keep patrons from falling into the ditch/moat.

I am certain there have been birthday whistles and baby cries infront of the tiger’s habitat before.
I don’t think a 5 year old would climb over the fence and act maliciously towards the animals, at least I hope a parent would be present and prevent that from occurring.
We do not know to what extent these boys teased and tourmented the tigers. Did they throw something down there to make it easier to allow the tiger to escape?
The zoo should not be held liable for these idiots’ actions.
Instead of changing the structure of the zoo, maybe they should have cameras or personel around the more dangerous habitats to not necesarily protect the people but the animals from disrespectful individuals.
Was the price that these boys had to pay high? Well, you play with fire you take the chances you’ll get burned. These kids jumped the fence and taunted a predatory and dangerous animal…they took their chances and fortunately their stupidity didn’t endanger the lives of other zoo patrons, but a beautiful endangered species was sacraficed for their maliciousness.

We as humans can go after someone, beat them and not kill them. When a tiger charges something they’re not gonna stop until it’s dead, it’s their nature to do so.
I find extremely hard to believe that these boys were just minding their own buisness when Tatiana decided to jump out and attack them. If they were throwing things at her or dangled their feet over the wall then she would’ve felt like they were invading her teritory and she had to protect her family. It’s the same way with my dog, if you stick your hand over my fence he’ll tear it off. Because you don’t belong there.

Picture this….

They’re hollerung and throwing things at Tatiana and this angers her a bit. Then one of them says I dare you to get closer and that’s how you get the shoeprint on the wall. All the while they’re laughing and saying how cool it is that she’s getting mad and can’t reach them. She’s probably growling and hissing and all the things tigers do when they’re ticked off. Then they take it further and one or more of them hangs their foot over the wall. By doing this they ivaded her territory and that enraged her and her killer instincts took over.
If any of you watch Discovery or AP then know that a wild animal will growl/roar or whatever at you to let you know you’re too close, if that don’t work they’ll stand and let you know how big they are and if you still don’t back down then they’re coming to get you with only one thing on their mind…. and that is to kill. Sometimes they just attack, but it’s usually because thed person was somewhere they didn’t belong…. too close to a wild animal.

Question for you Adam

Did she have any tiger cubs yhat might’ve led to her being overagressive ?

Adam

Why have you not reported on the criminal record of the two survivors who are refusing to cooperate with the police?

Can you get us something on that angle?

Seems like the herd could have been thinned a bit more without any real loss.

I had forgotten that Croce died that way michael.
He did have some classics, and yep, time in a bottle is one of the best.

Adam… I love your quick wit!
I hope that T-shirt design has you with a smile!!! Those are hard to find in print!

yah i remember that it started another Intifda …. i tried going up there with my dad when we drove up to J-town on a saturday but the israel police said we cant becuase there are only a particular set of hours that jews and none jews are allowed…. and i tried again with a friend when we went around j-TOWn and again we couldnt go in…..

the cooliest part is how you can be in a jewish part one secound then to an arab part the next… its cool …. at the wall when you go out thru the left its like all arab shops and stuff very cool and cheap stuff…. if i remember correctly thats where you took of your PICS OF THE DAY….

I got some cool pics from J-town from earlier this year when i find them on my computer ill show them here with a link

Amy – This will probably really tick off some people, but here are the full lyrics for that song. lol

Croce had a couple of novelty type songs that were big hits and then out of no where he came out with some of the most beautiful love songs I can remember, i.e. <Time In A Bottle written for his newborn son. He died in a plane crash days before his third album was released.

Uptown got it’s hustlers
The bowery got it’s bums
42nd street got big jim walker
He’s a pool-shootin’ son of a gun
Yeah, he big and dumb as a man can come
But he stronger than a country hoss
And when the bad folks all get together at night
You know they all call big jim “boss”, just because
And they say

Yeah you don’t tug on superman’s cape
You don’t spit into the wind
You don’t pull the mask off the old lone ranger
And you don’t mess around with slim

Mr Lee – from what I have understood there were only 25 visitors left in the zoo at the time, and these 3 were the only ones in the area of the tiger enclosure.

Dawn I think the wall was an issue it was to short, the reason the Tigers did not get out before is because they never wanted out before and these boys gave Tatiana a reason to want out, that was wrong but she still should not have been ABLE TO GET OUT.
As Tammy said this conversation would be much different if this was caused by a 5 year old blowing a birthday whistle, that would be enough to annoy anyone even a Tiger.
What about a baby crying could that set a Tiger off ?
you never know.
The boys were wrong but the price they and Tatiana paid was to high and that is because the Zoo failed to take the necessary precautions to protect the animals and the patrons, the wall was to short and did not have an over hang and the moat was dry, all very bad.
The Zoo is liable for this accident and responsible for it being able to happen.

doesnt the word “moat”..intend to mean there is water in it?
if it is dry, then isnt it nothing more than a ditch?

Mr Lee: 1: it was apprently 12½’ from the bottom of the moat, but i’m not 100% if that’s accurate.
2: Apprently only those 3 were there.

Roman… thans for letting us see those pictures!

Adam… have you and/or your brother had an opportunity to design any shirts yet?

Michael…i didnt mean it to sound like the wicked witch from oz type of poof….i just meant absent, now and then type! *LOL*
That is cool about your kids. All artistic in some form.

Since y’all brought it up…my house is tan colored!

whats a moat where is it located and what does it do =/

Our tall apartment building is white and I had a pear for breakfast.

Michael – I will have to try and find that song to listen to. Probably right up there with two of my favs, “The Man Song” and “I Am My Own Grandpa” lol

I’m hoping if someone could answer some questions for me.

1.) How deep was the dry moat?

I’m asking this question because I’m wondering if the moat was like 5 feet deep, so that could make a wall that is 18 feet tall (from the bottom of the dry moat) to also be around 13 feet above the land in the tiger pen. (If so, then I could imagine a full grown Siberian tiger leaping across 33 feet and maybe 10 feet up, when provoked.)

2.) Were other people around the 3 victims when they were attacked?

If so, then did the tiger only target the 3?

And in any case, what did the other visitors say was going on in the moments before the attack?

Thank you.

Amy in Sweden – I stole the list from a Jim Croce song entitled You Don’t Mess Around With Jim. What a talent that guy promised to be before his untimely death.

John44 – I would like to see some detailed pictures of the tiger den. The map doesn’t make the layout all that clear to me.

Patty – I don’t exactly poof. lol Sometimes I am in the mood to comment and at other times I have nothing to say. I always enjoy reading Adam’s blog, because he is very literate and has a nice way with words. He also has a good photographic eye. Both of those things have been long term passions of mine as well. I have three sons and the oldest and youngest have artistic tendencies. The oldest (27) is a pretty good artist and musician. The youngest (21) is more into photography and computer generated graphic arts.

My house is the color of brown brick. lol

Amy if it is like our Zoo here in Tulsa it is not suppose to matter if the tigers go into the moat they still should not be able to get over the wall that is part of the moat, I think they don’t put water in there in San Francisco and at our Zoo because they don’t want to deal with keeping it clean.
You know people throw things in there and the water would become stagnet and attract Masquitos since it is not moving and has no fish in it. etc.
They just do not want to deal with the added hassle of water, some Zoo’s probably do put water in their moat but alot don’t.
If the Zoo wanted they could make the moat 6 feet deeper which would make the wall 6 feet higher, but concrete and digging would be much more expensive.

I’ve tried to keep up with all the posts, so please forgive me if this has been brought up..I watched the family of the one who died..both the dad and mother adamantly said that their son didn’t know the two other boys and they were not his friends. Suddenly the dad is back on the news saying that my son is a hero for trying to save his friend. It all seems a little strange. (I know that kids always have friends their parents don’t know)

I’m more apt to believe what Jack Hanna says about tigers and their behavior than a policeman who has not spent much time with any.

oo and another thing was is the O’ Factor tapped??? =/ while all other shows are live?

On the one hand if zoos become like prisons and vistors feel like they are on visitation or something then it kills the whole affect of seeing animals ….. while on the other hand you wanna be safe… so the question is how do you make it safe and pleasing…..?

Maybe instead of having high fences put in transparent glass and that kinda stuff becuase if there is to much fence and that stuff you cant see jack….

Oooo Adam once a week this guy who used to work in the SHABAK( see below for what shabak is for those of you who dont know) … comes to talk to our class and talks about stuff its very intersting what he got to say…. this past week he talked about the hudna that Hamas was offering and how it works and the history…. i like asking him questions becuase of his insight …. he cant tell us what he did in the shabak for abovious reasons but one can only wonder….. one thing i did ask him about was about the whole thing with the digging on temple mount becuase i didnt really understand it….. and he told us that it appears as though that ” Israel” might find stuff of the Beit hamikdash ( Jewish Temple) very very holy and if they did it might triger relgious jews and jews to do more and boot the arabs out… he went on to say that the arabs try to conceal anything of the remains of the jewish temple and he talked about a tour he was given during his time in the shabak and he said that the mosque is huge with alot of underground stuff and it would be nearly impossible for israel to go in there… thats why Israel dosnt control temple mount….. if they went in there the Whole arab world would go nuts and alot of things would happen….

those of you who dont know temple mount above the Kotel is one of thee holyiest places for jews and jewish law sorta forbids jews from going on temple mount becuase they fear they might walk above the torah scrolls ( biblical scrolls) a big no no.

( The Shabak ( ) an acronym of Sherut Bitahon Klali ????? ?????? ????), also known as the Shin Bet, is Israel’s internal security service, the Israeli equivalent of the FBI. Its motto is “??? ??? ????,” which translates into: “Defender (Shield) who shall not be seen”. It is one of three principal organizations of the Israeli Intelligence Community, alongside Aman (the military intelligence of the IDF) and Mossad (responsible for overseas intelligence work). Wikipeida

Tammy – nice comment. You make some excellent points.

Daily I am becoming more and more outraged by what I am reading. Now making this teen Sousa a hero? Give me a break!! Didn’t his parents ever teach him that actions have reactions and consequences? If you provoke, taunt and enter a predatory animals’ habitat and dangle things infront of her… there are unfortunate consequences when you trespass and disrespect rules. In my opinion the zoo has every right go after the boys and their families for the damages/expenses that resulted from their maliciousness. If the fence was an issue the tigers would have escaped years ago. We will never know what these boys were doing to instigate the tigers, what they were using to taunt, how long they were taunting…I doubt they will be truthful of what happened (because you know we have become a society that can’t take responsibility in our own actions), but to call Sousa a hero and not come to the defense of the zoo is criminal. This poor tiger lost her life for being a tiger. These boys need to be caged not rewarded.
No, we don’t know for certain all that happened. I just doubt that a tiger would go through such lengths unless there was reason…protecting herself, her clan, an opportunity for a meal…you dangle meat infront of a carnivore, they’ll go after it.
Hopefully lessons can be learned here and people will think twice before taunting and provoking an animal.

the slanted plexiglass would be called an overhang. I’m not sure if a wire fence or plexiglass would be better. The problem with plexi glass would be the reflection for when people are taking photos, but with a wire fence they could place the lens in the space between the wires.

I have to say I like Melissa’s comment about India, but I still rather be in the USA….
The comments about wishing they were dead….thats disturbing…no one deserves that
As for Ken to Adam and responsible journalism….I have been following this story since it happened and only after finding Adams blog did I see Great Journalism. Right or wrong they are adults and will be ok. Adam, please keep up the great work. Remember there is a reason you are going to be on O tonight!

If you take the time to stop and think for a minute….does it really matter if the boys taunted the tiger or not? Would people be posting some of the same comments if this had been 4, 5, and 6 year olds? I really don’t think so. The bottom line is THE TIGER GOT OUT!

Whether or not someone climbed into the restricted area is still not enough reason for the tiger to have been able to GET OUT. Should people be able to get into restricted areas? No they are restricted for a reason, but they still do. If harming yourself is all that is caused then stupid is as stupid does. But if being able to get into a restricted area can cause an animal to GET OUT and cause harm or death to others than that is a major problem…….and IF indeed that is what happened the fact still remains that the TIGER WAS ABLE TO GET OUT and many other lives were put at stake.
Like I said earlier I do not want to blame the zoo and I hate lawsuits. The problem is everyone wants to know what in the world happened in order for that tiger to get out. If you think about it none of that matters…….On Christmas MAYBE it was the taunting……….but MAYBE on another afternoon it might have been the load shrill of toy whistles that 5 year olds are blowing from the Birthday party they just had at the zoo……..Once again it doesn’t matter because the TIGER WAS ABLE TO GET OUT!

I wonder if the reason why they don’t put water in the moat is because they are afraid it would attract the tigers instead of deterring them. Being as, they love the water so much.

Adam,

So far as I have seen, you have done an exceptional job in covering this story. Yes, information changes as time goes along (look at the Bhutto assassination for proof of that); however, I appreciate someone who reports with ethics, integrity, and facts (as they are assumed to be at the time they are reported) over those who use conjecture and rumor.

Hope to see an update soon.

Amy I really like the slanted plexiglass idea that would make everyone happy the cats would stay in for sure and it would not get in the way of picture taking.

Great idea.

Adam….i would never!!!

(i’ve learned sucking up from Susan!!! ha ha)

off subject……

Jen S…you still here? I meant to try to answer your question earlier about new postings.
( I’m not sure that I can answer the RSS feed though. Michael has a blog…maybe he can do better.)
As far as new postings….if you are using internet explorer…you can reload the page or refresh…the little button at the end of the address bar with the 2 green arrows…hit it!
It will bring up the new posts that way.

I agree Max there are little things that could have been done to make it much harder for the Tiger to get out, they could have put water in the moat also, the Tiger could not jump if he was swimming.
They could have put some plexiglass on top of the concrete wall that way people could take photos without a fence in the way, there are many small things that could have been done to keep that Tiger inside, The Zoo Director just wrongly assumed that the Tigers would rather be inside where they are comfortable that outside of their area where they are uncomfortable, in most cases that would be the case but in this case most likely the Tiger was very upset and wanted to do something about it, which is fine for her but she should not have been able to do something about it.
I personally do not think the boys helped her escape, I think she was pissed and did what a Tiger is capable of doing, jumped a 12.5 foot concrete wall.
The boys were wrong for taunting but should not have died or been mauled for being wrong nor should the Tiger have died.
The Zoo is negligently liable for this accident regardless of the taunting.

John44 – I wasn’t disagreeing with what you are saying. I agree with you that the wall should have been higher. It angers me that they were aware of it, but because they had passed previous inspections, they slid by and did nothing to correct it.

I was even thinking of slightly slanted plexiglas top to the wall which would mean the cats could not jump straight up or scale the wall to get out, might be a good idea.

I was just commenting on your comment to Michael where you said you thought that the boys were in the place they were supposed to be. But it appears that they may have been in the restricted area due to the blood. That’s all I meant.

Adam… so that was “big brother” here >> Comment by Viewer Services 2:58 pm.

It did look strange at the time

I agree with Terri, I trust what you report.
And I have always admired your ethics.

Hummm … a gang initiation?? Now, that’s something I never thought of …..

This blog is where I come to find out the latest information re: the tiger … I trust this blog for the truth and most accurate updates.

The problem with zoo safety is that the public wants to see creatures in a habitat like their normal habitat, and do not want lots of fences or glass ruining their photos.
If they had had wire fence overhang from the wall then even if the tiger had jumped the height of the wall it would have had a hard time getting over.

Amy yes they might have been just inside the railing but that still does not justify the fact that it is widely known that Tigers can jump 16 feet high and about 25 feet long the Tiger jumped out of the enclosure attacking the boys.
The Zoo knew that a Tiger could jump higher than 12.5 feet and they did not have the proper height wall to prevent it from happening, regardless of whether they were legally required to have a 16 foot or higher wall there is no excuse for not having one atleast that high, the Zoo is liable for not having a wall that was well beyond a Tigers ability to scale or leap, that is common sense in my opinion.
Personally I think the wall should be 20 feet high, just in case the Zoo gets a really athletic Tiger some day.
Overkill is a good thing when it comes to safety and this Zoo was underkill. Thats a bad thing for Zoo safety.
How much would 10 feet higher of fence cost them…. Not much.

Avi: what color is your house? mine is white.
My breakfast was grits with bacon bits in it, what was yours?

Please. This had to be a gang initiation of some type.

Avi…but we also do our fair share of “digressing”

btw…not that it matters, but i think i came here before you…and michael used to post her also, he sort of “Poofs” in and out! *L*
But none the less, Im glad you are here. You have helped me learn about a country i would never have known much about. Thanks!

John44 – but they did find blood “inside” the restricted area. Blood on the sign. So to me that gives me the impression that they were inside the restricted area. But its hard to speculate when we can’t really see what the investigators are seeing. Maybe it could have been blood splatter from the attack near the fence. I don’t know, I just know it has been reported that there was blood on the inside of the restricted area.

As I wrote:
“I don’t RECALL reading a comment that said they “wished they died”.

I didn’t see this one comment …. if there were more than this one … I didn’t see them…

in my opinion, the majority of people commenting don’t “wish they died”. Apparently, there was one or two that felt that way.

ditto i got spoked out of there…… hope this dont happen over here … lol… Gretas blog is more like a chat room…. alot of TMI…. ex ” what did you eat for breakfeast” ” whats the color of your house ” lol

Tiger intervention