LDG and Max–

the POD thread? LDG– Your turn to post a question!

@Susan-AZ and Max

Yes, let’s set sail for a new thread, and make claim to it!

Then we can post more easily (I HOPE) and Susan won’t have to pull the curtains on us for being slow.

Susan: you didn’t let us play for long! Yes, maybe this blog is too old.

I think this thread has died-

I tried to post a couple more links but it reads- discard–

Anyhow, the association with California is Solar One and Solar Two– Solar two was decommisioned in 1999-

Just type in Solar One in the web search and you will see how this all ties in together!

Max—

Here is the answer

http://mosaic.cnfolio.com/B101CW2007C129

Max–

Looks like this thread is in the archives- I don’t see you on the most commented articles anymore-

And you know I was kidding with you with my reference to shame on you~ I was amused!

great link– You just taught me something too!

Max-

LOL

Nothing to do with speaking Spanish– And you have the right region in Spain- and on the right track but it is not wildland studies- the technology from California was used for this project-

This should give it away–

Susan: we wanted to know if we were on the right track.

Not knowing Spanish i can’t read all that much about it.
But is it something to do with California being listed as one of the global bio-diversity hotspots by Conservation International, lust like the Andalucía region of southern Spain.

Both have a lot of programs to develop and manage biodiversity conservation programs.

Is it this project? http://www.wildlandsstudies.com/10.html

this would be more accurate-

“In Southern Spain, something is being implemented and an example of this would be in California circa 1970’s to 1999.”

Patty–

I missed three– blue beard- Mermaid- and the step sisters in Cinderella– (the foot question)

LDG and Max-

I am disappointed in you both. You two put up questions and I take the time to go out and search and this is what you gave back to me? Shame on you both.

Max- yes it is an enviornment issue- and it so happens this is an important issue which it affects us presently and in other generations.

Clue- The Barber of Seville

Patty– no– it isn’t that–

our kids were raised on disney movie classics. Movies and books.

Patty: i could only get 6 of those.

i’ll try susan…how about ….anti- discrimination law?

I never was a big fan of Shakespear, but i got 10/10 on this one! http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/departments/elementary/?page=Quiz178&Quizid=178

I’ll try a blue-sky guess, with absolutely no sourcing to back up the guess:

bilingual education in public schools.

Susan: i only got 5 correct.

Something in Spain now? i have no idea.
Maybe environmental protection.

LDG: glad you liked it.

@Susan-AZ, and Max

Sure we can move the hijacking to the POD thread. I agree, it is pity this one is bugged as I also would have liked to have 1000+ Max posts!

It was sure nice to see our good host had time to look in on things today. Always a pleasure when this ‘blog runs both ways.

@Susan

off-topic note: “… tennou?” — I think you ment “Your Majesties”, which would be the appelation -heika, but as that really is reserved for only one person on earth, I would suggest the more general but ultra-formal -sama as what to use after a person’s name to indicate great respect. Like this: when speaking of Danielle, honored daughter of Susan, I might well say ojousama instead of just her name.

re: Foxy comments. I saw one, as you know. I’ll go look for more now.

The question:
“I have a question now– it is an easy one– and if you have seen or heard about it, well then, maybe you can add on to it–

“In Southern Spain, something is being implemented and an example of this would be in California circa 1970’s to presently.”

Ooh, a “what is it” question… this will take some *thinking*!

@Max

Thank you so much for a very fine question! The way it lead to more than just a simple answer was especially fun.

Max—

here is a quiz– I only got 6 out of 10-

http://encarta.msn.com/quiz_309/shakespeares_world_quiz.html?GT1=27004

Max and LDG–

My question is @ 9:03 p.m.

I guess you are busy LDG– I missed seeing you!

Have a good day then– and Max, enjoy your German food you bought earlier!

oyasumi nasai-

may the Gods be with you!!

I spoke too soon– the darn thing just showed up!

Max and or LDG–

I left a question on the POD–

Adam has been visiting a lot today– many of us have personal comments-
I have to take Ken in the morning for a cholesterol test- he has to fast at least ten hours- so I am going to give him his snack now and leave here about 8:00 to be there by 9:00- by the time I get back, after finishing up some other responsibilities, I am sure, LDG, you will be zzzing-

After we finish up this question, which I am sure will be answered immediately, should we hijack the POD thread- once a picture has the answer, the thread goes dead- this one has the corrupt file and it so annoying for that pop up to consistently come up– what do you think? Group vote-

I still want these history classes– if you two are game- maybe in a more newer thread, some others might want to join– this is educational and fun-

What do you say Max and LDG tennou? hai

And we can all take turns with the questions– I have one in mind for my next turn- I have to do some research first- I think I have a copy of it when I was in school- it is a legal question-

Are you up LDG? Did you see my comments on Foxy’s site? I can’t wait to see the kitchen! I made a great pinwheel beef steak tonight- we are not big meat eaters but I do enjoy it- it had fresh spinach, cheese, and red bell pepper- then I marinated it for a few hours– it was good!

The pop up hasn’t come up– hmmm? If it is fixed, then why not stay here– I would like to see this thread reach 1,000. Adam should check in here and see what we have been doing- there is no other thread on anyone’s blog who could possibly have something like this going!

I will check back in a minute to see if you are around LDG-

If not, I will definitely be in here tomorrow my evening– Max- hope to see you around 1:00 my time and your evening-

xxxxx

wouldn’t you have visions too if you danced without a break for 18 hours or collapsed from a heart attack? all that dancing deprived their brains of oxygen or scrambled the brain! LOL

BTW Max-

your question was fun too!

Oh yes– I have heard of the Sun Dance—

I have a question now– it is an easy one– and if you have seen or heard about it, well then, maybe you can add on to it–

In Southern Spain, something is being implemented and an example of this would be in California circa 1970’s to presently.

There is my question– even if it is easy, give me credit for being creative! LOL

I should have kept my fingers from typing earlier– the bunker question would have been a fun one!!! da*n

LDG is right, the insain were considered able to always see into the spirit realm.
Only recently have they be considered needing treatment rather than being blessed.

A famous ritual is the Sun Dance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Dance

There was also one native american one was to dance for up to 18 hours without break and then when one collapsed they would have vissions.

I think all the questions have been answered pretty much.

LDG–

Will do (Foxy) — Please tell her hello when she wakes up– I am sure she doesn’t keep your hours-

I am so upset I didn’t use the bunker question for us– I was so sure you would know!!!!

Sleep well and don’t let the demons take over–
xxxxxxx

@Susan-AZ

I’ll be off to sleep in about 20~25 minutes… but I am done here for now.

do check the Foxy blog comments for the answers to your questions there, please.

My best to Ken, and I hope you have a nice rest of the day!

oyasumi nasai
((departs))

It is your fault LDG– You have me interested in history now and now I watch history channels–
I even thought about you when I was watching the history channel last night!

dang—- I thought for sure you would have known– and Metro2 also has a connection to the stadium–

I could have had a bunker question!!!

Are you ready to go get some sleep? I am going to feed Ken–

will wait to see your depart post–

Have a good rest!

xxxx

Hehheh, Yes, I saw you said you were up too late…

We’ve turned you into a History buff. Now you have to learn to manage the addiction before you have a library as big as mine, and have cable documentaries running on the TV at all hours.
((grin))

Anyhow– this kept me up this morning because it was interesting– some of those tunnels use to be the hangout for the criminals or people trying to hide from Stalin– but the rains would flush them out–

“if so, I could have used this as my question which I was going to do!!!!”

oh drat. that is a problem. cat–>bag–>out now. ((grin))

Metro 2 was built under the subway in Moscow– it was supposed to be a secret but it is not a well kept secret now! one can’t get to it as it is closed off-

each page is coded seperately. an error here might not be on other pages.

or… there is a database error as this is an old thread, and if no one at System Administration is keeping the archive cleaned up, something could have gotten corrupted.

bunkers– that is the word—
Metro 2– is this the building you are refering to which you would have to look up? Dang– if so, I could have used this as my question which I was going to do!!!!

((waiting for your post now))

why this thread with the ad client and not the other threads?

@Susan-AZ

reply posted to you comment on the Foxy ‘blog, explaining why no picture of Mew.

re: wartime tunnel bunkers. The Moscow tunnels are pretty amazing. I actually would have to look at a reference to see what building you ask of, sorry. The story of how some of the bunkers were designed and built is cool though. Did you know London and Toukyou (Tokyo) also have mazes of tunnels under them from wartime bunkers? A constant problem for modern subway builders to deal with now.

re: Max — I am content to leave our posts here for him to comment on when he has time. This is a fun topic and it will be fine to just go at a leisurely pace for now, I think.

You must be busy– monitoring whatever you are doing–

I need to leave here in about five minutes– I have to go feed Ken–

will wait for you to come back-

this pop up is very annoying— very!

oops– resonant

He built a stadium as a cover for his barack under the stadium– And he had the acoustics set up so when he spoke in this bomb shelter barack, his voice would resonate as he had a soft voice–

what is the name of the church he got rid of to put up that building with Lenin on the top which was never completed? Because the supplies were needed for the war- They had to rebuild it—

I didn’t see Mew– how come?

Max must be busy! did we get the answers?

I watched a documentary about Stalin last night and his underground tunnels- pretty interesting–
Metro 2

@Susan-AZ

Either the same less-than-clever individual responsible for the banned word list did the page coding, or someone doing the ad client did something foolish. The result, no matter who is to blame, is that there is an open-ended script that has to be “killed” to get the page to reload.

My bet is the ad client, as this page used to function correctly.

headed into email–

I keep getting on this thread only– to stop running the script pop up- what is with that?

Where are you?

@Susan-AZ

ok, you said you’d be back here… so here I am.

personal notes: you have e-mail, and there is a new Foxy ‘blog post from yesterday.

looking for LDG–

NOT HERE! GRRR!

lunatics— moon struck

Hello-

Just got home– that appointment only took a half hour– Yay!

schizophrenic comes to mind-

LDG– Post @ 11:37 re: to the clouds

@Max, and Susan when time allows

My turn to help out. The Group said to have a “permanent window into the Spirit Realm” would be those who by modern termanology would be said to be insane.

The specific examples are very numerous, but in general, the seeing of images of delusion, the hearing of voices in one’s head, and the ravings of madness were all associated through history as related to spirits, either seeing them or being possessed by one.

This was nearly universal amongst cultures. Even more structured religions, like Christianity for one example, often gave credence to what would be considered madness today.

Likewise, it was commonly held that overmuch contact with spirits would result in a permanent condition of seeing them… e.g. would drive you insane.

***

On other points of the discussion:

The key, in most all cultures that had rituals to be “able to see spirits” was the understanding that some sort of altered state of consciousness was required for a normal person to gain the ablity. Whether that was by ingesting items with psychoactive properties, or by stress (extreme heat in a sweatbath, oxygen deprivation from ritualized shouting, drum frenzy, there is a long list), or by meditation (rhythmic chants and self-control of brain wave function), the result was the mind entered into an altered state.

***

and a BTW:
The usual refutation to the claim of smoke “from the tent” in the Mosaic tale is that in several other references to the material appearance of the god, the cloud was said to descend from the skies, rather than rise up from anywhere terrestrial.

***

Ok, there’s a contribution to the effort. Let’s see is this advances things.

Susan: I was thinking that because the cloud was meant to be right outside the tent door that it was likely that something was being smoked inside as Benny Shanon also suggest.

And they are not revered now. The name for the group is pretty much used as an insult now.

Moses’ Cloud

When Moses enters the tent, the sun is crossing the Milky Way.

but here is something of interest- Not to say this is so– but interesting

Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem gives evidence that Moses life story seems inspired by psychedelic experience and that he may have partaken in some local hallucinogenic plants.

2- Mediums/parapsychologists

3- revered– because these people have supernatural abilities–

—————————————————————————

just throwing guesses here, Max–

the cloud– People of this era worshipped elements in the sky, such as the sun, moon and stars. They thought that storm clouds were all powerful deities who controlled nature. So any association with the elements would have a religious connotation or significance- as a symbol-

Anyhow— I am going to get some sleep– and I really can’t think right now– But I will check this out tomorrow afternoon– I have a full morning tomorrow!

xxx

Susan: Re Moses: Yeah, and now if halucinations were thought to be looking into the spirit realm, and Moses was to meet face to face with God for messages from him, what do you think was the likely cause of the cloud?

2nd: They were alive at the time they were revered. I’m not wanting the name of their ability, but what people today call them as a group.
And how some of the practises performed by other people to see into the spirit realm could force people into the revered group.

what group of people are considered to have permanent windows into the spirit realm?

dead or alive–

limbo–

sixth sense– open channels?

Moses tent?

The tent of meeting

http://images.acswebnetworks.com/1/163/18March2007.pdf

Following the Exodus from Egypt, Moses pitched a Tent of Meeting outside the camp. Whenever he went out to meet with the Lord, the Pillar of Cloud would descend, and the Lord would commune with Moses. Joshua, Moses’ aide, would accompany him to the Tent of Meeting, and would not leave the tent (Exodus 33:7-11).

Yes, during sleep. It is common that when people wake up they see apparitions.

So what group of people were considered to have permanent windows into the spirit realm?
And what was going on inside Moses’ tent?

they attacked people while they were sick or in their sleep?

HMMM!!! I will have to come back to this later– it is much harder than I thought!

Max– no- not all rituals involve hallucinogenics, but I was just showing the different rituals practiced– And it is still practiced in many parts of the world where the spiritual world and the human world involve a ritual done through hallucinogenics or black magic rituals–white magic- etc– and has been from the beginning of time–

Susan: not all the rituals involved using drugs. The one performed for tourists in Arizona does not involve drugs.

And don’t forget the other questions, they’d help with that one and the one about the Bible.

A common time for hallucinations meant that demons were meant to attack people while they were… what? Which group of people were revered in ancient and “undeveloped” societies because of this belief?

LDG–

I won’t be here in the morning– I will be leaving here around 8:30 a.m.
so if I don’t see you later, maybe my evening tomorrow and your day–

Max–

this topic is interesting as it can lead to many different other topics!!

xxxx

I used the above as examples in reference to @Max- Am I teaching you something Max-

What rituals and practices did people do in order to get visions of the spirit realm, and how did this sometimes force people into the previous group?
There were different practices and rituals across the world, so we can compare and contrast them.
The ritual of one Native American tribe to try and view into the spirit realm is still performed in Arizona every few years, and is supposed to draw large crowds of visitors to the reservation.

The Huichol Indians aka Peyote People, in the Sierra Madre Mountains,in Mexico practice rituals by using peyote- I had a friend, a Professor, back in the 70’s who studied with them– He claims through their magical powers done through a mental process (after ingesting peyote) this group can actually move solid things– Whether this is true, I don’t know–

Another example– I don’t know if you know who Carlos Castañeda is but he was popular in my younger years– He wrote about the use of hallucinogenics in rituals (similar as to the velada ceremony) — the hallucinogenic he described was Sacred Datura-

It is used in a tea–and it has been used to hex and to break hexes, to produce sleep and induce dreams, and for protection from evil. It has also been used for Divination, to find one’s Totem Animal, to allow one to see ghosts, for communing with birds, for long hunts and strength, for sharper vision, for sorcery and to increase supernatural powers as in Aushadhis, the awakening of the supernormal perceptual states through the use of certain drugs and herbs.

(Aushadhis is a whole other subject)

—————————————————————————————————————-

DIABLERO: from Spanish: diablo, devil — a sorcerer connoting a sense of evilness; usually with the ability to shapeshift.

Carlos Castaneda is perhaps the foremost, or at least the most well known example of a person whose indoctrination process or apprenticeship, it has been said, was guided by a shaman-sorcerer influenced by a Diablero. Castaneda’s teacher has been described in several books by the writer as being a Yaqui named Don Juan Matus and who learned his art under the direct auspices of a Diablero.
—————————————————————————————————————

I myself have tried peyote– and I did hallucinate– I saw visions from what I called were peaceful ones– Nasty stuff– and with the above and peyote, these are very poisonous!! One has to be very careful when ingesting these-

I have also tried mushrooms– and I had hallucinations as well- Peaceful ones

Now you know one of my secrets!!!

Here I am -

early riser– I barely slept!! LOL–

OK- What exactly is the question? Max– your subject can open a variety of doors-
In response to one of your questions, Max, going back into time, plants were used in rituals to conjure the spiritual world–

There is a ritual called veladas/ A Mazatec Mushroom Ceremony where mushrooms are used, all are psilocybin-bearing, and in short a velada might be called to serve a number of ritual purposes, including healing and the need to communicate with those far away.

Here is, from the internet, an example- Maria Sabina is a priestress

During the course of the vigil, all may see visions. The priestess may chant, feeling that the mushrooms speak through her; she may also drum or dance. (Maria Sabina reports once destroying the walls of a hut with the force of her dancing!) If she is seeking news from far away, her spirit is said to go forth to visit; if the ritual is for healing, her visions should tell her what to do. The priestess may massage the sick person, rubbing where it hurts; she may rub “San Pedro” (described as “ground tobacco mised with lime and garlic”, a protector against evil spirits) on the sufferer’s body, or place a little in their mouth; she may vomit on the sufferer’s behalf, to remove the malevolence from their systems. She may see visions of the sufferer’s spirit, and understand the relationship between their spirit and their illness, and also what to do to intervene. Maria Sabina describes herself as curing with the sacred Language, being helped by the saints and the “saint children”, and her cures as coming from God-

@Max

sorry for the late reply. I’ll wait until Susan has a chance at trying some of this. Sadly ‘tomorrow’ is my busy day of the week, and I may not be back in here until ‘morning’ (both terms re: Susan’s time zone)

As to the next question being from Susan, YES! Sure, sounds fun.

See you at the next opportunity.
((departs for the day))

Maybe once we’ve finished with my questions Susan can post a question for us

LDG: well there are several remaining questions, and one of them is pretty open ended, so if you want to do a little, then there would still be plenty left for susan, or we can just wait, it’s up to you.

@Max

I concur, that is stronger.

((sigh)) Susan came and went for the day over at the POD…

…guess we get to wait a bit on this project.

LDG: that’s a possible reference, but Exodus 33:7-11 is a stronger reference.

Heh heh, Susan is an early riser today…

Susan-sighting over in the POD thread!

@Max and Susan

I can do the bible reference on the fly, as I immediately recognized it. I *think* I have the larger picture too, but I am happy to not take advantage of the time zone difference and wait to have Susan see all this. We are on even ground if we have to research native shamanism anyway.

@Max

without giving away the game, your reference from the Books of Moses would likely be Numbers 11:24,25, yes? the 70 Elders brought to the tent?

If you are interested in the many early Hebrew beliefs as to the mainfest Yaweh (”I am” = God, the one god at the center), here is a lovely reference I keep to hand on that:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=588&letter=S

Kind of makes all that talk about the Temple having been a bit important seem at least believable in context, doesn’t it?

I forgot in the Bibel there are references to moses performing a ritual in his tent to commune with God, what were the references and what was likely going on inside the tent?

I had also meant the belief in how people saw into the spirit realm, but I’ll post that as a follow up question.
LDG has pretty much got it other than that. But Susan has already worked out how people saw into the spirit realm and has started working on the follow up questions which I had yet to post. I couldn’t post them with the first as they’d have given too much away.

The spirit realm was considered to be separate and/or invisible to mortals most of the time. A hallucination was considered a short view into the spirit realm, though the cause of the hallucination did not normally have importance, only the hallucination itself. There was a belief in many cultures that people’s minds were closed off to viewing the spirit realm, but people could force their bodies into a state where they would see into the spirit realm via various rituals and practices. There was also a belief that a certain group of people had a permanent window into the spirit realm, and were revered because of this.

A common time for hallucinations meant that demons were meant to attack people while they were… what? Which group of people were revered in ancient and “undeveloped” societies because of this belief? What rituals and practices did people do in order to get visions of the spirit realm, and how did this sometimes force people into the previous group?
There were different practices and rituals across the world, so we can compare and contrast them.
The ritual of one Native American tribe to try and view into the spirit realm is still performed in Arizona every few years, and is supposed to draw large crowds of visitors to the reservation.

Max–

read my one liners from way up and let me know if I am close!

xxxxx

Are you still here? I just had to refresh and click and so on!

OK– If don’t see your final depart– Sayonara for now.

XXXX

@Susan-AZ

ok, Be Well and Safe, and I’ll perhaps see you in your ‘morning’.

Rest well when you rest.
((departs))

*****
FOR MAX and the current question

re-presenting mine of April 21st, 2008 at 2:38 am:

Oh, a good one! I have a odd feeling this question has more to it than the superficial…

1st try: It is posited by most folklores that a “hidden realm”, place of spirits, or extra-material world exists beside the mortal world, and that beings non-mortal can pass both through it as well as to and from it. So in the case of single witnesses out of a group present at a sighting, it might well be that only to one individual was a view into the “hidden realm” allowed, or that the spirit “revealed itself” to only one person present.

I am presuming that the “not witnessing” part of the original question applies to “finds no physical evidence” as well.

oyasumi nasai to me and have a good day!

(((( hugs))))

and thanks for all the great teachings!

You are so funny—

I am having the same problems too– and a sledgehammer is a great idea!!!!

ok–

I need to get out of here too– as you know, I could stay up all night with you! but go do your life as it needs to be done– I have to give Ken his snack as well– his blood sugar was a bit low so I gave him a bit of juice and now I have to check it again to administer his background insulin as well as his snack!

You are fun!!! Nice fireplace, BTW– The mew’s are going to love it– make sure they all have their beds in front about ten feet away!
what is the answer for Max’s question? Max– I need a clue!

now I am into this Benedict thing–

Benedict - Italian monk who founded the Benedictine order about 540 (480-547)
Saint Benedict, St. Benedict

@Susan-AZ

I am pretty much having to use a sledgehammer to get this page to reload after posts.

Even with every script disabled, it is still showing all the signs of *RFPP* site database management. (and no, I’m not going to spell out RFPP).

It is late for you, and I am busy here, so rest well when you rest. Thanks for looking in at the Foxy ‘blog!

((departs shortly))