What about a night course for adults who want to improve their parenting skills. Couldn’t we get that through out the country. We had the no children left behind act, why couldn’t we have something offering the parents of these children, enlightening ways to deal with the situations that their children are involved with. I think there are plenty of parents that care, but just don’t know how to deal with things, so they look back at how they were dealt with, and say if it was good enough for my parents and me, then its good enough for me and my kids.

Sorry: as well as an advanced class in the psychology of parenting. I mean’t to say that an advanced class in psychology of parenting should be offered to those who wish to take it.

I think the difference in sleeping around, and having babies vs. polygamy and having too many babies, is that those people sleeping around are not trying to hold it up to the world that what they are doing is a spiritual endeavor that should be considered something to be respected and followed. They are simply doing, because they have an hormonal drive to do so.

I do believe your right about the problem with children in America. I think that a parenting class should be manditory for a sophmore in high school, as well as an advanced class in the psychology of parenting. Something their parents needed to raise them in a more beneficial manner as well.

Ifti
What am I concerned about — well, originally I came on here to find a picture, I hoped, of the girl whom called a situation in to the authorities. Then, I began to read some of the post’s on this site. I am an agnostic, that has seen some of what religion can do. Its not very pretty sometimes. But, I also believe it can be a wonderful tool for comfort and healing. I am interested in peoples opinions on how to help this situation, but maybe none of us know the complete answer, although, I do believe the more we can learn from each other, the more benefit we can be should a situation present itself in which we have acquired useful knowledge.

Concerned,
That of course is an option, but the larger picture I am trying to paint is one that recognizes that we cannot ensure that, even in foster care, these children will be better off than being sent home with their mothers on the condition that they attend public school and CPS is involved in ongoing assessment of their mental, physical, and psychological well-being. I promise you that the church has enough money to support them, and if properly prosecuted and convicted, the men will have the incentive to stop this outrageous and criminal abuse of underage females even if they do not cease to engage in spiritual polygamy, which as you can imagine, will be difficult to prove or distinguish between that and other women who choose to bear children outside the bonds of legal marriage. And, I want the plight of other under age girls who are having babies all over America to matter to someone. We agree that our children are the future of our country, but we are failing to support and protect them in a myriad of ways and we, as a nation, need to come up with solutions. There is nothing happening behind those walls in El Dorado that is not happening in practically every city in America, from under age children being forced to have sex to welfare fraud. Clean up the FLDS community, certainly, but don’t stop there.

I wonder if the woman in Vermont who drowned herself and her children was a member of the FLDS church?

kathy,

but how does one know the “right jesus”? I mean, muslims believe he was a prophet and so do the jews, catholics have the longest running relationship with him, all the rollers out there say they know him through the “elvis experience”, that is the feeling of the spirit through electric guitars and drum solo’s, baptist say they have him cornered, but what baptist? I mean there are thousands of different baptist faith’s, are they all right? does god change church to church? we have the mormons and JW’s going door to door, claiming they know him, you have the 7th days that are the only ones that keep the sabbath day holy.

I mean, it’s crazy, and I start thinking that only people on the jerry springer show, really care, then I come in here and I see a modern day salem witch trial on the mormons, with people spouting left and right, things that I KNOW are untrue and then making claims about thing impossible to prove….my jesus is better than your jesus.

Alright, here is the deal, we can have a jesus grudge match, we will have all the different jesus’s line up and only the real one will win, all the other imposter’s will be dammed, along with their followers.

Are you really willing to stake your soul, everything that you are, on the belief that your jesus is the best jesus?

I for one, just accept my fate, I have been to hell (twice) and you know what? I thrive there.

Well, just be merciful about it, Shot. I think the right Jesus would want it done that way.

thanks kathy, I was mostly kidding, I am still beating the bro in laws arse, just to see what will happen, don’t worry, if he ascends into heaven or anything, I will make sure to post it on youtube

Wow, you girls went at it all night.

So yeah, I LOVE how I automatically HAVE TO be a member of the LDS church just because I think this discussion (that has gone off on a twisted little tangent) is stupid and serves no purpose to the actual topic at hand (mary been there, you make a lot of assumptions that have no basis on reality). By the way, what religion I belong to is irrelevent to the topic at hand. I didn’t know one had to state what religion they belonged to before chiming in on a subject. What else do you need to know about me? My race? My political views?

I didn’t understand why you are going after the LDS faith when they CLEARLY have no control over a funamentalist branch that believes the LDS church is wrong. Seriously, do the research, the FLDS want nothing to do with the LDS church because they believe that the mainstream LDS church is misguided.

And the law in Utah and Arizona DID try to go after the people in those polygamist communities. Yeah they didn’t raid the place but they were able to do a little. BTW, the raid on those towns in the 1950’s outraged a LOT of people across the country. It was a public relations nightmare for all involved because the media sensationalized it and made the women and children look like victoms of the LAW instead of their abusive husbands and fathers. You think anyone really wanted to go through that again? Even then, did it STOP any of the abuse? NO!!! The people regrouped two years later and kept up their lifestyle.

WE DO LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES, and you can’t exactly FORCE people to stop worshipping in whatever way they chose. You can go after people for abuse but before that happens, you have to have PROOF of such abuse. You can’t just go into a place weilding guns without any real evidence. Yeah they did it in Texas but there is a possibility that what they did was illegal. Because of this, SOME or even ALL the evidence they found might be thrown out of court. Thus making it more difficult to convict these people of anything. See how that works?

Mary been there, if you are looking for anwers, do some research. You do own a computer that has access to the internet. You are sitting at one RIGHT NOW. And no, I wouldn’t equate posting your theories here as doing any research. And no, I wouldn’t consider a message board to be a great source of information. You see, there are a lot of misinformed people on message boards spouting off a bunch of stuff that has no basis on reality.

I do believe that your little theories are meant to misguide people and not (as you claim) to get answers of your own. If answers to your questions is what you wanted, you wouldn’t be wasting your time here, you would be doing actual research. Even then, it seems like your mind is pretty well made up here. No amount of fact finding would actually change your mind. You are obviously hellbent on going after the LDS church leaders over something they have no control over (innocent until proven guilty–We live in the UNITED STATES, not communist russia). Find some actual proof that there is a connection between the FLDS and the LDS church and maybe people will listen to you.

And if you want to talk about dark history, MOST or dare I say, ALL religions have a dark history. Do some actual research and you will know what I am talking about. There is a reason a lot of people aren’t religious these days–they did their research and most/all religion doesn’t sit well with them because of the dark history religions have.

Thanks Shot for injecting a little humor. You were trying to be funny, I hope? You’re sure we are not already in hell? Sometimes it’s hard to tell.

OK…

Lets get this out there, this blog is about the sect in Texas, they were abusing children, they will be punished, and rightfully so. I sincerely hope and pray those children are taken care of and protected.

But I see a lot and a lot of mormon bashing, I have many friends and family that are mormon, and they are fine upstanding people, with a strong belief in god, unyielding family values, and the best examples of living a Christ like life.

So it saddens me to see them trashed by people spreading hate, who cares if they don’t believe the same as you? who cares if their church collects a lot of tithing (many mormons are very successful) who cares if they believe in another book besides the bible? who cares if they call themselves christians?

Does any of that affect you? no, none of it does, not one bit of that affects you.

Mary been there, I am now going to hold you personally responsible for every crime committed within 1 mile of your residence, you seem to think the mormon church has the authority to investigate another religion (they don’t) and so you are now bound to investigate every person and activity within one mile of your house….sound ridiculous right?

You want my opinion now? yes the mormons are going to hell, they believe in the wrong jesus, the JW’s are going to hell too, they believe in the wrong jesus, the catholics are going to hell, because, well, they believe in the wrong jesus, the non-denom’s are going to hell because well, they believe in the wrong jesus, the baptists, well, they almost got jesus right, but they are going to hell too. the agnostics are going to hell because they don’t go to church, the muslims are definitely going to hell because of 9/11, the hindu’s well that wacky bunch are all going to hell, the 7th day adventists, yep hell, as a matter of fact, there are only about 1000 people going to heaven and they all lived 2000 years ago, when the real jesus was giving out passes.

Am I going to hell? absolutely, and you all would be better off to accept it, because it is impossible to believe in the “right jesus” with our limited knowledge of the man, I mean there were a few things written about him, but only about 3 years of his life, he lived into his mid 30’s and we know very little about him between his early childhood and what was his “ministry”

The things we do know about him:

1. He preached completely different principles than what god had commanded earlier (eye for an eye, to forgive and forgive)

2. He was a 30 year old with no job, yeah he trained as a carpenter, but it wasn’t like he worked anywhere

3. He challenged the “normal” thinking

As a matter of fact, he is beginning to sound a lot like my unemployed brother-in-law, maybe I should rethink my kicking him out of my house and instead worship him.

There is that little thing about jesus getting crucified, I suppose I could just beat the bro’s arse and see what happens.

Do you people see how ridiculous you all sound?

Dear Concerned et al,
The reason I persist in making the case that polygamy is no more immoral or disruptive of the family structure than divorce, remarriage, teen and unwed pregnancies, civil unions, etc. is because I believe that the standard of monogamy (which I live by) is no longer relevant to most Americans. I think it is prudent to admit, while we are considering the ramifications of putting these children in foster care, that there is risk to children EVERYWHERE in America. We have 12 year olds having babies in our junior high schools. We have children abused in foster care. We have children in temporary shelters. We have actors and actresses, athletes, and politicians of the highest rank who daily give messages that sex with anyone you choose is ok and will be tolerated by America, even supported by America. And that is not even to mention the children who take weapons to school to kill other children. Tell me I’m wrong somebody. I think the FLDS should be investigated and charges filed where appropriate. But, to say that they did what they did under the auspices of religion is to leave the rest of America without excuse. This is a wake up call for us. We are so worried about these 400+ children, and we should be, but this country has a seemingly irreducible number of perverts, and they are not all behind the walls of a FLDS compound. Our children are just as vulnerable, and we have Hollywood, lax morals, incompetent institutions, and fragmented families to blame. And, ourselves of course. We can’t protect our own children, what makes us think we can protect these? Our country needs some serious come-uppance, and if we don’t do something soon, we may get it.

Once, when I was growing up, I asked my mother why there was war. Because, as I reasoned, “Who wants war? Nobody wants war!” My mother turned to fully face me and said, “Don’t ever underestimate the thirst for power.”

Power, control, and wealth. That’s why the Catholic Church sat on their pedophile priest problem for decades, attempting to cover it up and silence those who were harmed. And that’s why the Mormon (LDS) Church did nothing to investigate or stop the abuse by their first cousins on the southern Utah border. They didn’t care how many people (like your mother in law, Cuervogold) would have their faith shaken, or lost, by their lack of action - and not just the souls of the broken victims. In fact, their lack of action proved implicit consent. That’s why your mother in law fell away - she could not separate the pedophilia from the hierarchy that knew about and allowed it. A hierarchy that cared ONLY for its power, intact image, money flow, and control over church members. In the end it was about them, NOT about their followers. By not acting in a swift and decisive manner, and despite their efforts at damage control, they lost immense credibility and support, as they should have. But worst of all and last on the list of concerns, were the countless hearts broken and souls lost. The payment for all this is out of our mortal hands, but it will come.

One more point: Both churches illustrate the problem that when a church body places itself between a soul and God, they muck it up every time. There are bad apples in all religions, but a bad apple should never cause anyone to lose their faith. Sin is in the world and minds get twisted. The fault for both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church is that the power structure they’d formed, and the influence they held, were more important than the souls they led. While churches have a wonderful leadership and teaching role, ultimately your relationship is with God - if indeed you believe in God. It’s between you and Him. No middle man. It is not God who raped any of the Catholic or FLDS children, it was sinful man and ponderous church bodies that were looking out for themselves.

Cuervogold
We are grieving, and this helps them to grieve, and maybe understand. You say they are attacking, but maybe they are stating facts the best they can. I don’t know which one, if any of you is correct about the Mormon’s doctorines, but this is a blog for discussion, and stating things in a rough manner does not change even one fact.

I think that some people can start out with it being religion, but their own psyche gets involved, and they start to interpret things from their own mental filter. Their ego, and filter can make a really murky mess of what should have been kept at its upmost reverent. I think that might have been why religion was created in the first place. We need to keep trying to be our best, that way our own healthy ego’s can feel supported, which truelly is part of what we need for a healthy balance. But, I think it all got messed up when the desire to be the best, or/and the most powerful, or/and respected, came into play. I do think it might just be possible that some of the abusers are mentally deranged, not just evil. Its so very sad when one as selfish as a pedophiler, takes away anothers ability to celebrate their faith. But atleast she is blest by the goodness of her own soul. I wish I could say something that could bring comfort to you and her, but what she went through was grieving, and grieving doesn’t have a set of rules, but is dependent upon her own psyche. Give her support and Love, this is the best thing you can do to help her right her own balance, and be able to reach out to her faith once again.

Mary been there
Thanx, and I do pray for them daily

Concerned:

I guess I had to reply to your last post….it was not a discussion about the compound and the abuse there when I would reply…it was about the Mormon Church. That is not what we are all reading this blog for. Some are reading it just to find a tie between the two and that is evident. They come on….read it, reply once about the link between the two and voila! gone! But the real good blogs are about the solutions and the problem at hand. Not religion! You had some very good suggestions about the issues facing the “healing” those kids would go through. The women as well (and the boys that were lost/kicked out of the community). I guess I just hate religious discussion. If I liked it…I would have joined one, right? But I also hate to see one get slammed in such a harsh manner (and unwarranted, I might add).

I have to admit, though, Concerned…my mother in law is Catholic. She was the most devout Catholic woman I ever met. Went to church faithfully, always said her rosary (heaven’s knows she wore them out on my husband and I), and she always talked about how she loved her priest. It was standing room only to go to Church and hear his sermons. He was truly popular. This was in Ft. Lauderdale in the late 90’s. But when the pedophilia amongst several priests that seemed to span further back as the time went on surfaced, she stopped going to church completely and rarely spoke of it. One day I caught her crying in her room. Her sister had a heart attack and she was concerned about her faith in dealing with the heartache. I was as amazed then as I am now with this. Just because the church had a few bad apples does not mean that the entire religion is bad. It was so sad to see the devastation that it caused the Catholic Church. It not only lost so much money in donations but it also lost so many of it members due to this scandal. But the fact still remains….the doctrine did not change….people are fallible but if you had faith and believed in the doctrine, then the church is still the same church. She still does not go regularly but at least she goes on Sunday and does her rosary daily again. I guess what I am trying to say is that while I feel the Mormons have a defense for the polygamy they did years ago but stopped (for whatever reason), the FLDS Church does not. That is strictly about their actions, not their doctrine (whatever that may be). Does that make sense?

I really do have to go to bed. I am eastern standard time and my husband is getting angry with me.

Good night and be good!

Wow, Cuervogold, you were nothing but an agitator. That was your purpose for being on this blog. You know, that’s kinda slimy. What was it about? Practice for the courtroom? And to be honest - although I still don’t know for sure - I didn’t think you were an educated person. Just a combative one.

Concerned, you on the other hand, are a very, very nice person. I’m going to be praying for the whole group in Texas, and I hope you will, too. After all, the men, though perpetrators, were also victims of a sect they were born into. Who knows? There may be a whole new healthy life soon for them all. Hope so. Concerned, take care…

Cuervogold
You call it brazen…we call it trying to think of a solution to help. Thats what people do when they feel trauma, and wish they could solve it. Stop being so MEAN!!! Try helping, not being sarcastic. You preach about not discussing religion, yet thats all you do… but hatefully and attacking. Why??? You need care your self. I’m sorry. But we all do in one way or another, and attacking isn’t the solution.

Cuervogold

Concerned

What…does the truth sting a little there?

Why not make it a discussion, thats what they were doing.

Concerned:

Very good point…you are right…I have not brought up any points about how to fix the problem. That is mainly because I am not brazen enough to think I would even begin to know how to fix it. I did state that they would need medical, physical and emotional assistance but even more, psychiatric counselling, serious counselling that would start with deprogramming. But I am more interested to see if there is anyone out there that has lived this….really lived it and can give insight into it….not blame an organization that is not even involved in it. There was one woman that was doing just that but she stopped posting. I found it compelling to hear her side. I read this to get that kind of insight. Not waste my time reading postings by people that want to just write Anti Mormon crap. It is about these polygamy compounds. The horrible things that happen. Why it happens? how it happens? Where to go from here? That is valid topics for this blog. Not religion. As many so eloquently stated it….religion has nothing to do with this. There is not a God in this universe that would condone His members participating in this kind of behavior. Agreed? Making this about religion is the very argument the FLDS church will try to hide behind. Blogs like this would only serve to further that belief. Most of us that read this blog are more interested in what happened in that compound and what to do about it. But it is irritating to see so many get caught up in the other easier way to go…bash the Mormon involvement (that realy does not exist in this case).

Mary:

You seem to be an intelligent woman with a lot to offer. But I can also see that you have sadly become so terribly jaded on the church as a whole just becuase you happen to live so close to these “people of the corn” that lived in Colorado city. You did say that is wher eyou lived and that you knew the Jessop family personally, correct? Was that you? Well, I can assure you that I have met people in many parts of that state (I have many friends and relatives in Duschene, Brigham City, Provo, Salt Lake, Logan and many other parts of the state) over the past 40 years (as I was 17 when I lived there and I will be 50 this November). I lived there eleven years. I can honestly say that I did meet some people there that were pretty “stepford wife” in behavior (no more like originally stated….”children of the corn”. But normal people (all Mormon) far outweighed the strange ones. It was also in the far remote recesses of the state where that kind of people lived. That is not typicaly of the rest of the state. It has been a pleasure, though, “blog sparring” with you, girl! Stick to your guns…you are entitled to your opinion….just try and temper it with facts is all.

Thanks and have a good night, Mary Been There! You too, Concerned.

I believe it will take a long time, and alot of reinforcing the same views for them. Something as serious as a belief in a God, whom is the ultimate being in most peoples minds, whether it is correct or very messed up, is going to be hard to extricate from a beings psyche. I believe it will take indepth review of what they have been taught, alot of rationalization, alot of patience of the period in which they will neither hear, nor have the ability to address the truth of their situation, and finally alot of support, comfort and reinforcement of the fact that none of this is their fault. When you are taught of a God, even though you may finally not believe in that particular God’s actions, or that, that particular God even exists, your mind will return to its teachings, again and again, it will tell you things of what you were taught were correct, and to disobey, or to ignore, will possibly mean severe retribution. For the survivors, I believe there is so much work ahead of them. It will take a humanitarian, not just a psychiatrist to treat them…Dedicated and caring…But it also would be of great help to have a caring America to support them.

And Cuervogold, if you’re an attorney, savagely attacking your opponent isn’t that swell an argument. I personally prefer a cordial offering of facts. A verbal assault might work in a courtroom, but on a blog? When there’s a discussion going on? Particularly when everything you’re accusing me of, for instance, is actually something you, yourself, are doing. Remember, verbosity isn’t the same thing as intelligence and knowledge. And hurling insults doesn’t open minds. And mine has just closed to you. By the way, if you’re an attorney, my occupation is very similar. G’night.

Mary:

I stand corrected….yes…you are right…it was ‘47.

Concerned

What…does the truth sting a little there? I have no axe to grind but I definitely can say that all too many of you people like to say horrible things freely without providing back up…..legitimate back up. So if you gets you a little “put off” that someone might respond with a little bit of indignation and add some sarcasm to it, maybe even a little anger, I say, deal with it…..you want to put your opinion out there, expect to get angry responses if it rubs people the wrong way. Not all of us see you as a ******* Ray of Sunshine, Concerned! Do you truly think that is harsh? Sorry, I’ll make it caustic….that is what might be better because I see that it does not seem to phase any one of you. You all say things that are unfounded simply to state them and feel you are in some way benefitting your readers by putting something out there that is totally irrelevant. There are so many other things you could write that just might be interesting reading. I would buy a gossip tabliod if I felt the need to read the kinds of things that lovely list you printed above posted on their blogs. This is a topic I find interesting (the abuse that took place in that compound). It is a very real problem in the midwest and it needs to be dealt with before any more people fall victim to it. Not just children but adults as well. It is sick and twisted people that do those kinds of things and I, for one, read this blog to look for answers not finger pointing in the wrong direction by those that only seem hellbent on slandering another church to further their opinion of said church. You are right….I have so little time to spend reading blogs and on Fox, they are normally really good. But when you get fatheads that want to use it to stray onto topics that are only self serving, then I am sorry (and I genuinely mean that), that you are included in that lot! You can spot them immediately….people that keep spouting defamatory information without back up (which If it comes from some ridiculous hate site or a site some other church created to smear the Mormons, then it does not qualify as valid back up, frankly).

You know as I start to read my postings, though….it does start to sound like I am on their side. I have plenty of issues myself with the Mormon Church but this is neither the place or time to list them. All out of a matter of respect for another’s belief.

So, in short….keep your religious opinions to yourself….not just about your church but also about the Mormon Church. If you want to slam the FLDS Church, then have at it, girl! They brought this on themselves the day they started practicing polygamy (which to me is totally unacceptable). But more so when it was discovered they were involving such young girls. That has my blood boiling and then to add the little minded comments going on in this blog that keep brining up the Mormons just makes me angrier. So again…..I am sorry you are in that group….but you are the one that seems to also keep feeling the need to “share” your assessment of everyone elses religious statements. I guess to a degree, you can accuse me of the same thing. So once again, I will sign off but I would like to think that you as well will do likewise as it seems you have not changed your tune….just different replies you are replying to. I at least took a two day recess. I know I am wasting my time and I think, honestly, so are you. So, Mary Been There and Concerned….have a good night ladies….I have no hard feelings for you both but it would be nice to think you left this blog for people who are really putting their suggestions or possible answers to the questions that are validly arising from this situation…did they do what they are acused of? what is going to happen to the young girls and boys? How it it all going to be funded?, etc.

Concerned, did you write the comment, that if what is happening with the group in Texas is in the name of religion than it brings the discussion of religion in by default? If so, good for you. And it’s as true as it can be. Thanks for all your comments and for holding up a mirror to Cuervogold so that she can see her own.

I think I’m probably not going to write much more, if anything. Bottom line, as I already stated, we, as Americans, have a right to understand the cause and effect and history of what is unfolding in Texas. Period. And that’s for the good of the innocent and helpless individuals involved. Whatever has been going on within that sect that is unlawful - including fraud, whatever - must end.

And one more personal note: I did see some bad things happen in Utah, but it’s not the Mormon people I have a problem with, for almost all of whom I was in contact with were very kind to me. It’s the hierarchy I have a problem with and a culture that is being perpetuated. The history of the Church is very dark and I’m not convinced that all that was happening long ago has ended. Which, though I haven’t stated it, is one way to look at the FLDS group and their bold practices.

If religion is their angle, isn’t that where to start, to better know what has been programed into these abused individuals minds?

Cuervogold
Am I correct in understanding that for you the issue is about the abused beings that were on the compound for the FLDS’s? If you have an idea about how these beings could be helped, maybe you could start the discussion and others would possibly join in and expand upon your thoughts, until a positve direction has been achieved.

Concerned….making it about religion is what will be the defense these animals are looking for. It is not about religion. Mormon is not FLDS. Period. Don’t confuse the issue here! Dont’ blame the Mormons for what is happening! Stick to the issue….the abuse! I have not strayed from that and trust me….you won’t get me to get sidetracked on that issue. But I do not get involved in these postings until I see that it is becoming so onesided that only your opinions are getting through (nor yours personally but those that keep trying to show a causative or negligency link between the Mormons and the FLDS abuse here). Keep in mind that is opinion….NOT FACT you all keep saying. Stick to the facts. Having the Mormon church assassinated in this blog is not going to make me not able to sleep. It is not my church. Even if it was…the world does not revolve around this. But to not present the other side (with facts and common sense rather than fear and loathing for what you do not understand) would not be very wise for a litigious person like myself. Yes…I am sure it is not hard to figure out what my profession is. It will also explain why I find it hard to see everything being so one sided. It is the FLDS that you all need to be angry with. Not the Mormons. Big difference. And with that in mind….the issue is what the FLDS church did, not the Mormon Church. So, yes…girls….religion has nothing to do with this so stop bringing it in as a main subject. Leave the Mormons out of your discussion. I am not the only one that finds it offensive. Aside from all the Mormons, I am sure many that don’t particularly care for them are sick of seeing people like me and the Mormons having to write stuff in defense of their beliefs. In reality what the “heck” (since we are talking about Utah), does it matter what you believe? To me it doesn’t mean a hill of beans. likewise…my beliefs should not be relevant in the scheme of things for anyone else that is not intertwined in my life. I don’t even know you. But that is the way it should be. I don’t care what you believe. But I do hate to see you slam another faith because you don’t believe in it. don’t try and hide behind this…..I don’t hate them….you clearly do….or you would stop trying to create a link between them. It does not exist. I am sure that just as there are some that claim the US Government and Bush (who had only been in office for less than 8 months) had caused 9/11 for alterior motives, there are people who will be creating the back up to support the scenario for the Mormons being the ones behind all this. Anything can be argued and if no one is there to defend it or dispute it….it will go uncontested and taken for truth. That is, why my dear, I make the good money I do….I represent the other side (right or wrong).

Cuervogold, I’m know what you’re saying - truly I do. But at one time, Mormons voted in a block, with church leaders dictating how votes would be cast. Then being accused of that, church leaders would walk in and say to those on the left, vote this way, and on the right, vote that.

In recent years, I know of non-Mormon children in public schools in Utah who were routinely injured by Mormon kids while the teachers turned a blind eye. I know of one teen girl who was roughed up in a hallway, her collarbone broken. In another town, kids tried to set a boy on fire. I heard this from their parents. I knew a Protestant minister whose phone was tapped. I knew an American Indian who wanted to begin a scout troop and was told by the Utah chapter that he couldn’t start it anywhere but in a Mormon church facility. Not true, of course. While these may or may not be isolated incidents, I state them because they suggest a culture that, even in recent years, reflects much of the historic atmosphere in Utah (or Utah Territory, Deseret, whatever) and the influence that the Church hierarchy wields. (albeit the hierarchy had nothing to do with roughing up kids, but something that was believed to be church-approved was being perpetuated in the acts. And kids don’t tap phones.)

Yes, I knew the Catholic Church was there early, as was the Methodist. It was a Methodist minister and his wife who spirited Ann Eliza Young out of Utah to safety. But Brigham Young arrived in 1847, not later as you’re saying (remember SLC’s “Days of ‘47″ celebrations?)

I hope, over time, there will be freedom of independent thought among Church members. But, as you know, their overriding purpose, a prophesy in fact, is world dominion. (you’re probably yelling about now) To me, however, that means that the peculiar and wonderful laws of America are perpetuating a GROUP’S mission, NOT American patriotism and loyalty to the USA. In other words, this country is a means to an end. Just my opinion….

But I do want to thank you for your references to Catholics in Italy, etc - excellent analogy and points all well-taken. Your words did make me see things a little differently than I have been. Time softens everything - we’ll see. But a major prophesy? Hard not to think about that….

Cuervogold:
Why do you have so many negative things to say to people? Can’t you find a kinder way to express yourself?

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 11:25 am
So many of you are simply afraid of something you do not understand. I can see it with the idiot that started talking about Muslims, and his identical twin that starting spewing crap about Baptists.

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

To Mary Been There:

Get a life, girl. I have no hesitation matching my wits against what you like to think you have.

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

To Rachel:

Hello….do you understand English? Are you literate?

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

I have to agree with Alex on that count. Who is fooling who here? Sounds to me like Mary Been There and poor misguided Dave don’t have the slightest idea about what they are talking about.

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

To Kirk
Get your heads out of the whole you bury it in and learn a little bit about the world around you and you just might be surprised how similar many of you are and you might learn something that could strengthen your own faith and understanding of your God. (That one was on the last paragraph - Atleast you didn’t start out being mean that time)

Comment by Cuervogold
April 11th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Drovin:

Layoff topics you haven’t fully researched.

You are spot on there. It is hate and loathing for someone that feels the need to get so off the actual topic to say things that are really not necessary and truly vindictive. Stick to the topic and stop smearing the church. That is what you are doing. What does it matter if the Mormon Church changed their name? The Catholic church changed their name of their doctrine in the 70’s as well to Vatican II. Does that mean they had something to hide? Just stop getting sidetracked on smearing a good church and people. You obviosly have issues with this church and IT IS OBVIOUS. You are taking advantage of an opportunity to say things when people are primed to hear it. That is all. Admit it. You are right….it truly sickens me to hear you say the kind of “stuff” you do about them. And by the way….I am not male….I am female…so don’t let that intimidate you either! I am not a misogynist (since I am a happily married woman with children). Like you, I am not Mormon but unlike you…I am capable of accepting them even if I do not agree with them and I let bygones be bygones until they do something I feel they need to be called on. Simply put! People I love and respect are members of that church and are good upstanding members of society and they are as Christian as any of the rest of the Christian world. If you were truly involved with the church, you would not even try to argue that one. There is nothing to hide. Just grab a missionary and ask them what you want….they will tell you. So don’t mince words…come out and admit that you have an axe to grind with the church that has nothing to do with this incident. Something happened to you while you lived there that turned you sour on them. Just because some poor example of an LDS person happened to cross your path does not mean you encountered the prime example of what they are truly about. Shoot….Ted Bundy was born LDS and so was Gary Gilmore but that does not mean all LDS people are cold blooded killers now does it? Just stop judging and maybe people like me might stop throwing such harsh reprimands in your general direction.

I will back off because I am getting a little more bold with you than I should. You have a right to your opinion. Just state it as that or provide the link to back it up. That is the best way to do it. Just make sure that it is not a link to something that was created by an Anit-Mormon. There are enough in the mainstream media to back up anything real you want to state. Trust me…that is how I verified my stuff. USA Today, NY Times, Washington Post (not run by the Mormon Church or Anti Mormon Hate Groups). There are plenty non-partisan sources out there as well as the television stations and a plethora of interviews.

Also, please remember that just because a church is private does not mean it has something to hide. I don’t hear people freaking out because the world has not got constant access to the inner dealings of the Pope or any of the private (not secret) rituals of the Catholic Church. They likewise have nothing to hide. Same as the Masonic Order….they have nothing to hide but it is sacred, not secret!…Private not secret! Wasn’t it your Jesus that stated that you do not cast your pearls before swine? What do you think he was referring to? It was your faith and beliefs. It is those that are the most sacred things you posses and you should not spew them out for public ridicule or abuse. It is also the only thing no one can take away from you. I think that Judaism and their strong faith was the only thing the Nazi’s could not take away from those in the concentration camps…heavens knows they denied them everything else and took everything else away. The SS could even take their life but their love of their God and their faith in Him is what carried so many of them through to where they could survive as long as they did and many come out alive. Faith can move mountains but it is something personal that is not necessarily meant for public discussion and definitely not on a forum like this blog.

Just because people don’t make public their beliefs does not mean anything other than they value then more than to wave their beliefs out for possible ridicule. There is a time and a purpose for sharing that kind of information. It is almost impossible to convert someone by convincing them. It takes the presence of that Holy Spirit to manifest when things are true. That is speaking on a level much higher than something like this blog should contain. Keep the religion out of these discussions. That is all I am saying. I hate polemics (both politics and religion). Keep this on topic! Abused kids in that compound and what can be done to assist them.

Cuervogold

It has nothing to do with religion….it is about sick, sadistic people preying on the weak and defenseless. This was your last line from your post: Comment by Cuervogold
April 11th, 2008 at 9:21 am

It is in the name of religion it is done, so it brings religion into it by default.

Mary:

Actually, you are wrong again on the count but not by much…it is a little lower than 90% but that is still a high percentage of the legislators that are LDS. But if you have been around them then you know that just like Catholics or Baptists, being LDS could mean various levels of dedication and conviction to the church doctrines. Not all of them vote the straight line. I do agree with you that the government (not the church, itself) did not do anything until the Olympic Games were coming into SLCthat was even bordering on dealing with what they had outlawed in the late 1800’s to gain statehood. A majority of the population of the state was embarrassed by the behavior of the polygamists and did not want to be defined by them in anyway. They had enough hurdles to overcome without dealing with that issue.

Just remember that our country is founded on a seperation of Church and State. The Church does not run the state (including in Utah). It just so happens that there is an overabundance of its members both in the state and the legislation. If they were all Baptist or Catholic would you be acusing the Baptist or Catholic Church of “turning a blind eye to that kind of behavior…even if they had made sure to excommunicate them and barr them from membership until they changed their lifestyles?”. Of course not. The government chose not to do a thing about it. Not the Mormon Church. That is all I am trying to say.

Keep in mind that that little renegade community that was growing down there in Colorado City was simply a group of people that just happened to form from a group that was excommunicated from the Mormon Church….that does not mean the Church still dealt with them on any level. Once excommunicated (unless the member repents of their ways) they are never allowed back in and considered never a member. Their membership is literally erased from the records. If you know as much as you say about the church, you would know that. So it comes back around to….don’t blame the Mormon Church for turning a blind eye to it all. It is not something the Church did, it is not something they are responsible for (anymore than the Catholic church…which by the way was the original church in Utah…..if you study the history…long before Brigham arrived in 1888. The Catholic Priests had several Catholic churches in that state years before).

I guess the best way to put it so you can understand what I am saying is that if you live in India, where the main religion is Hindu, it is highly likely that most of the legislators are going to be Hindi but that does not mean that they are all going to vote the same. It also does not mean that the Hindu religion is to blame for everything that goes wrong in that country. Likewise….because it is no wonder that there are so many Mormons in government in Utah, does not logically follow that they are all going to vote the same. They are normal people (most of them) and have minds of their own. The Church plays no role in their decisions. Early in Utah’s history….I grant you that the church did run the government. I mean come on….good old Brigham was the governor of the state for quite a while and the prophet of the church at the same time. But that changed and not long after he stepped down, the church seperated itself from politics.

I mean….in Italy the Vatican does not rule the country (granted it is a country all on its own but it is technically within the country of Italy and most Italians are Catholic. Right? So if Italy does something morally wrong does that mean the Catholic church is to blame. So on and so forth.

One has nothing to do with the other.

And Cuervogold, since you claim to know so much, answer this: When did the Mormon Church adopt the name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They have officially admitted to adding the name of Jesus Christ for the purpose of greater acceptance. And with the name change, did the church also change? I didn’t think so. And neither did the FLDS group.

And why don’t you just communicate - why the scathing and contemptuous words and tone? I’m not calling anyone names. And you suggest that I’m the one filled with hate?! Hmmmmm………

OH my gosh, it’s you again. Cuervogold, why do you resent the possibility that I just might know what I’m talking about? And while you may be right about the official name of the FLDS sect, THAT GROUP has been sitting on THAT GROUND at Short Creek/Colorado City since just about 1872 or soon after. It’s because of the water that is there. The Arizona Strip was grazing country (though certainly no longer) and water was the key. Short Creek was known by another name prior, but I can no longer recall what it was. Most all the ancestors of the group were from historic Mormon families.

And I DON’T HATE MORMONS. Quite the opposite. As I wrote in another blog, I hate the hierarchy of deceivers who have built a power and financial empire that masguerades as a church. That is my opinion for a whole lot of reasons and I’m entitled to it. I happen to be a very nice person and, usually, diplomatic. If I sound otherwise, it’s because of my fury about what has happened to so many hundreds and hundreds of women and children - innocents, all - in that sect, in the name of religion when it never had to be. That’s wrong and I AM furious about it. And I believe, and nothing will ever make me believe otherwise, that the mainstream LDS Church, historically the Mormon Church, had some hand in it - either overtly or covertly.

And last I knew factually, 94% of the Utah legislature was made up of wealthy Mormon men, all high-ranking members of the Church. If that has changed in recent years - which it may have - good. But since the beginning - I’m talking about 1847 and beyond until recent years - the Church leaders, the judges, the law, and the legislators were the one and same. Why do you think that Utah has the reputation of being a theocracy? It’s because that’s its history.

And so you’ll know: I’m stating nothing in my comments that is heresay or that I “heard from my cousin Bob” or something. When I’ve quoted from a source, historic or otherwise, not only have I held an original copy in my hands, but I have also bothered to have the information corroborated through other sources. Some things, I admit, I’m quoting from memory, but if I’m off at all, it’s not by much.

Here is another fact you might find interesting:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596

62.4% Of Utah is Mormon and only 41.6% are active Mormons (that go to church). I think that the diffference between those that are Mormon and those that go are the ones that are bashing the Mormons on this blog. Whatever the case…at least get your facts straight. While I never saw a need or desire to join their church….they have done nothing to me and 99% of what is written in this blog about them is baseless. They did practice Polygamy…yes….but that does not define who they are anymore than the debacle over the Catholic Child Abuse mess in anyway changed the truthfulness of that church to their members (if it did, then they did not learn to differentiate between doctrine and weaknesses of humanity). You cannot change your faith just because members let you down…the church has not changed just because a few did something bad.

Just stick to the issue…child abuse within this particular compound and stop throwing stones!

Oops! Forgot the link. Below is the link that belongs to the FLDS Church. Contrary to Expert Mary Been there (not sure where but obviously not here!), the FLDS Church is less than 25 years old!

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/ChartLinks/FLDSChurch.htmp

It is interesting that you would still continue to talk like you know what you are talking about. The FLDS Church was organized in 1986 (not over a century ago). The RLDS Church was started immediately following Joseph Smith’s death in 1844 but they never practiced polygamy. All other polygamist groups never adopted new names of the LDS church, they simply claimed to still be Mormon eventhough the Mormon church excommunicated them after they disavowed polygamy in 1890.

You need to check your facts! Go to this website if you want to learn more about what you porport to know. This is the official site of the FLDS Church! The Mormon Church has not been turning a blind eye to polygamy at all. They excommunicate them when they do it and have been all along. Don’t confuse the Utah politicians with the leaders of the LDS Church. Just because they are in Utah does not mean that they are all Mormon. Just like me, you lived there (we are not Mormon and neither is almost half of the population) but many are afraid that to lose any votes in a state that is sooooo heavily lop sided to the Mormon faith. So they will pander to whomever they have to. It has nothing to do with the Mormon Church dictating to Utah what happens. Contrary to what they think, Utah is not ruled by the Mormon church. Go to Temple Square and look at the kind of things that happen outside it. If the Church had its say, it would not happen. In the smaller towns, maybe yes….it is much more slanted to Mormon but don’t group the entire state into a lump like that.

You seem to continue to find reasons to slam the church and they are always the same. I do not understand why you keep spouting off facts that are simply false like you were there, you saw it all and you know first hand. I am beginning to doubt you were ever in Utah or that you ever even met a Mormon. You say one thing and write another. Be consistent at least. don’t fold to the Mormons that keep reply back to you….if you hate and despise them then say so. Dont make up crap just to try and make others hate them more.

They have done nothing to you….! Unlike Ana and others on this blog that had exposure the cruel actions of some of the polygamist groups, you have nothing to add. You just keep using this as a sounding board for you to slam the Mormons. Sad….truly sad….

And I thought you had finally realized it was not going to change the minds of those that haven’t already made up their minds one way or the other. Just like the Dallas Cowboys….either you love ‘em or you hate em! Cut and dried. I respect and admire the Mormons and I love the Dallas Cowboys. You could learn to do likewise with at least the Mormons. Unless of course you can add something that really is a true life experience you may want to share of how you were raped, abused or taken advantage by some Mormon elder or leader while you spent your thirteen years in Utah. Now that would be worth hearing! If it were true.

Penny, your comments explain why the FLDS sect has continued to operate and prosper for over a century right under the nose of the Mormon Church/State of Utah. It’s because the Mormon (LDS) Church hierarchy has always been more concerned with protecting themselves and the Church’s image, than in protecting innocent women and children, many of whom throughout all these decades have been unwilling captives.

Everything you are outraged about regarding the FLDS church, I’m outraged about, too. And, as Americans, we need to know what the heck it’s all about. But you failed to notice our commonality of thought because of your swift and heated defense of your church. (and if I’m assuming you are a Mormon, than in this one instance, I am an “ASS”, rude though that comment was)

The bloggers here come from many different backgrounds, different faiths, and have different and freely stated opinions. That’s America. We offer up what we know, think, and believe. But there is a problem in Texas, and to know how best to deal with it and what we’re really dealing with, questions need to be asked about how it all came about. Wouldn’t you agree that that would lend the best understanding? We have a bunch of great people in Texas who are trying to deal with all this and to be able to trace the history would provide invaluable assistance to them. The FLDS sect didn’t happen overnight.

Sorry to those discussing doctorine,
It didn’t occur to me that you might be trying to understand what makes the people think and act the way they do, so please accept my apology as possibly misunderstanding your motives.

Penny
I think your right about most of it. I think religion is a way to bring a form of respect and gratitude into our lives, and doctorine is not the issue. I do believe that when you cross that line of marrying children off, to partners they themselves did not pick is a form of abuse.

Rich,
There is no doubt that Mormons do not believe in the Trinity. We actually believe that concept is not actually taught in the Bible. We see it as an explanation of what man has tried to explain as to the nature of God in the fourth century at the Nicene Creed. We do however believe we lived with God before the world was and Christ was God before he came to earth.

You mentioned that I left opened the possibility of being a God some day–We do believe that man will inherit all that God has some day. We believe that we will be joint heirs with Christ; never ever replacing or going above Him, but that if we are faithful, we will gain all that he has. That to us is the definition of being a God. What details that specifically means has not been revealed and probably won’t in this life. I believe Bible also teaches that we will become joint heirs with Christ.

We do concede that there are doctrines in our church that differ from other Christian doctrine, but we feel with all of hearts that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and we receive salvation through Him, and there is no other name for which we can be saved. All of our doctrine centers around Christ, and we devote our lives to Him, and this we believe gives us the common bond with Christians.

I guess you may still be wondering what FLDS people believe; I have no idea. If they would distort what Gods intends for marriage, who knows what else they would distort. All I can say is what they are doing is not just against the laws of the US, but they are breaking God’s law, and their leaders will stand accountable before God someday.

Kathy
You speak of polygamy as an alternative life style. To me, alternative doesn’t necessarily mean bad or good, just different. But, as any responsible being would have to acknowledge, having many partners, and children with them in this day and age, is neither practical or considered to be moral, regardless of whether it is polygamy or just having sex and babies without being married. I believe it is the degradation of society in part, a loose for this young country that says - In God we trust…One nation under God, with liberty and justice for all. How is that just to bring into this world, children you most likely can’t support properly, and very possibly know it before the conception occurs. Can you match God with, maybe I can and maybe I can’t, or I’m going to anyway, because I know I can get someone else to pay for it for me. It is such a bad example for humanity, when it is done in the name of Religion and a God.

Wow…and I MEAN WOW! WTF!?! Seriously people, I came here to read an intelligent discussion about the story listed ABOVE. You people are off on a crazy tangent. There are some people who are making ‘ASS’umtions (no need to name names. *cough* ‘Mary been there’, ‘eyes wide open’ *cough*), and discussing crap that is HERESAY and has NOTHING to do with this story. Seriously people if you have a beef with the LDS church, the FLDS church, and/or ALL religion that’s just fine but it’s not the subject at hand. There is NO reason to be nitpicking about doctrine and who believes this or that (especially if your ideas have no actual facts to back them up).

I thought you people would be more concerned about the CHILDREN–YOUNG GIRLS–who are caught up in the middle of this huge mess. There is possible SEXUAL, PHYSICAL and MENTAL ABUSE going on (and yes there is quite a bit of proof to back this up. And NO, I am not referring to the “alleged” call made by an unknown 16-year old girl). Who cares what GOD these people believe in, ABUSE IS ABUSE! You people should be discussing the subject at hand and not fighting over doctrine and/or posting stupid theories or other stuff that don’t even APPLY to the subject at hand.

And so what about the whole POLYGAMY thing being illegal (Rape and abuse of minors aside)? Do you people ACTUALLY want people to be arrested for having sexual relations with other people (because that is all they are actually doing since they AREN’T actually marrying more then one wife–legally speaking). There are a lot of laws that are blatantly broken everyday and yet no one is actually arrested for breaking them. Homosexuality (homosexual acts) are also illegal in many states and yet no one is arrested for commiting them. What about all the people commiting adultery? Are they being arrested? Is the law stepping in and stopping them? HELL NO!!! Do I agree with this? Does it matter? NO!

So this is where I stand:
-Polygamy, I don’t really care so long as it is between consenting, legal adults.
-Abuse of any form, IS TOTALLY SICK AND VERY WRONG! Especially when children are involved.
-”bleeding the beast”, totally pisses me off! I am choking on my anger!
-going off on tangents in message boards, also ticks me off.

Skyking: What has recently come out into the light of day in Texas is a cult that is systematically raping children in the protected name of religion paid for by American tax dollars.

Americans are willing to work to help those genuinely in need. But the fraud and exploitation being carried out by this group - in, first, Colorado City, Utah and now in Eldorado, Texas - is almost without parallel. This group is opportunistic and has shanghaied federal and state dollars, evaded taxation and prosecution, and thrived under the “religion” umbrella of protection. As a nation we have a right and obligation to examine this situation with a magnifying glass and get to the root of how it came about.

Already on this blog, I have asked the question: why didn’t the Mormon Church - particularly if they claim to have no connection to this group - examine the compound in Colorado City and shut it down long ago? Why did the FLDS group pack up and relocate to Texas? I feel its valid to ask the Mormon Church about this because its leaders, as they have always been, are also the state legislators and the law authorities in Utah. They are all the one and same. Americans deserve answers.

The FLDS group has prospered on Utah’s southern border for over a century. Can you honestly tell me that the Mormon Church didn’t notice the millions of public assistance dollars going to Colorado City? Can you honestly tell me that they didn’t notice the airport, capable of landing Lear jets, being built alongside? Can you honestly tell me that they knew nothing of the mistreatment of women and children, including incest, battering, runaways, rape, and abuse? Where are the children born with birth defects? Someone on the blog asked, where are the little boys? Yes, where are they? These questions are why I have belabored the connection between the two church bodies. And I have the right to ask these questions because my labor and earnings have gone to pay for it. I also have the right to ask any question I want because I’m free. Would to God, those FLDS women and children were equally free.

And just personally, I don’t believe anybody has a right to rape children in the name of religion. Do you?

Kara, thanks for your response. I read several books maybe 15 years ago by Presbyterian, Methodist, Catholic and Baptist authors who cited the differences between “Christianity” and Mormon beliefs. They all agreed (contrary to Joseph Smith’s teachings) that the Bible is complete, that Father God was never flesh and bones, that man was not a spirit child in heaven before coming to earth, that man can never become God. You leave the door open to the man becoming God belief (with his own planet and eternal marriage) by saying that you don’t know what will happen after you die. You say that Jesus and Satan are brothers because God created them both, but Christianity believes in the Trinity -that Jesus always co-existed with God and the Holy Spirit. Not trying to comdemn the Mormon religion and the good works that Mormons do. Wanted to know if LDS & FLDS held the same tenets.