This is exactly what happens in Hilldale,AZ and Colorado City, UT and what is done there, nothing!
Congratulations Texas!
By the way, you will find these young women living on State assistance so essentially they are already under custody of the State.

Why can’t they just remove the criminals from the premises and let these women and children stay together in their homes (without the rapists and abusers)? The state could bring their counseling and other services to them. It would be a lot cheaper (they seem quite self sufficient) and it would be much less traumatic for these already fragile young ladies.

I live in Utah, about 300 miles from where members of this group still live. I’ve driven through Colorado City and Hildale. I agree that both Utah and Arizona have tended to turn a blind eye to what was happening in this polygamous community because of the disastrous eradication effort of Arizona authorities in the 1950s, known as the Short Creek raid. The conventional wisdom since that time has been that polygamy is a practice which, although technically illegal, is not as harmful as tearing these families apart would be. Assuming these are consenting adults, I think most Americans would agree. Unfortunately, this inattention of the states, coupled with secrecy among some polygamous groups, has allowed an evolution of the practice into something that is obviously harmful to women and children. Beginning about ten years ago, Utah and Arizona authorities have paid more attention to allegations of mistreatment of women and children in some of these groups. Tom Green and Warren Jeffs are the clearest examples of Utah prosecution of polygamy. Each case involved accusations of sexual abuse of minors. I hope the effect of these developments in Texas will be to convince polygamists everywhere to allow girls to grow up before they are even counseled to marry and to convince law enforcement that these groups are not exempt from the law. It’s probably too much to hope that polygamy itself will be eradicated, particularly in a society that basically takes the view that every kind of sex between consenting adults is beyond state control.

Arizona and Utah authorities have closed their eyes to this abuse for many, many years. I commend Texas authorites for acting on the abuse of these young girls as soon as the opportunity arose. In addition, the abuse is not only on the young women of the cult, but also of the welfare system.

Heaven help these children if the State of Texas DHS is involved. A judge from my state sent children to Texas with their abuser with a court order that Texas DHS follow this family. The order was stuck in a file. These children were abused for four years before they were rescued. This will become a fiasco with incompetent people.

Allowing the “women” and children to stay behind serves no purpose. Those mothers, adult mothers anyway are indoctrinated and complicit in the whole FLDS system. They are as guilty as the men.
What normal loving mother would allow her young child to be forced to marry some crusty old man that already has a pack of wives? No, those girls are in danger from the twisted beliefs of both the adult men and women.
This is not unlike female circumcision, or better described as female mutilation. The women are just as guilty as the men of perpetuating that atrocious custom too. The old women hold the young girls down, mostly the old women perform the procedure itself. Females relatives are often the most insistant that it must be done for the good of the child.
Most of these FLDS men have more then one wife, many more in some cases. Since there are many more women then men the situation would not exist if the women weren’t going along with it.
So even though it sounds all warm and fuzzy to just move the men it makes no sense.
And that self sufficient idea? The children of all the wives but the 1st are the children of legally unwed mothers. They qualify and often recieve public assistence in many of the FLDS communities. We help support children being raped and forced to bear even more children.

What is going on in Texas. Where are their scruples and morals? Who is on watch down there. I find it difficult to understand the amount of insignificant squabbles the legal and political officials persue when much more critical issues are readily available for inquiry. I’d like to ask why the epidemic of Meth even exists? Why does the federal gov’t just outlaw the production of ephedrin. Meth then goes away. Why does the gov’t (and its agencies who oversee these things) make it a felony to prescribe a medicine that is approved through the FDA for one thing but doctors prescribe those medicines for almost everything but the ailment they were approved to be used.

It would be more cost efficent on taxpayers to let the women and children stay at their homes. The women should not be punished for their believes unless they were active in the physical or sexual abuse. The woman that will allow her young daughter to marry an older man, well that is how she believes her child will get into heaven. Think about that. They believe that if the don’t follow their husband and father’s rules they will perish in hell. No one wants their child in hell. I think it will be worse on some of the kids to be away from their mothers and forced into a society that they fear. I would say it would be like dropping a 12 year old in the middle east under their believes. That would be overwhelming and scary. We need to tread slow. Help end the physical and sexual abuse, but we need to make sure we do not inflict any unneccessary trama on children.

I say keep the children with their mothers, or in the case of minors, with their grandmothers, let them choose for themselves where and how they choose to live after they get adequate counseling to allow them to make an informed choice. With regard to the men, prosecute any man who knowingly engaged in sex with a minor and send them to jail. Leave alone any man who, although he may be spiritually married to more than one woman, is legally married only to one woman. There is no law against a man living with more than one woman, he just can’t be married to more than one woman. If you follow this logic, then families that don’t need to be broken up can stay together and the burden on the state and the Child Protective Service is reduced and more easily managed. Lastly, if the states can allow same sex marriage, then there should be no reason not to allow polygamous marriages. If this had been the case all along, there would have been no need for these people to hide their activities and children would not have had to serve as the source of wives for those who practice it. I will leave the decision of what is and is not sick to those of you who seem more capable of passing judgement on others.

What is so criminal about groups such as these is the emphasis so many of them have of control over the thinking of the “subject” individual in the group. It’s funny that so many of those at the top of these little heirarchies eventually come to be discovered to be very little, angry, power hungry perverts. Controlling women seems necessary to them since they don’t seem man enough to look a woman in the eye and see her as the equal that she is.

It’s one thing for a person of adult age to willingly enter into an alternative family relationship, and an entire OTHER thing when young children are pressed into it. Discipline is propose to be a requirement for “purification” or some other similar horse (***). Funny how the more religious a group is, the more focused it becomes on discipline and control.

Where “control-over” predominates, abuses, fear and violence follows.

Since the mormon faith proposes to be a variant of Christianity, I would surmise that this variant of that group also claims to be some strain of the Christian faith. It doesn’t matter. What ever the religion (Christian or otherwise), if it talks the talk of utopian ideas, yet lives by severity and control, it is nothing less than some kind of “Christian Talaban”, missing the whole point of the essential message of the “Christ” one claims to represent. (seems obvious enough).

There is nothing sacred or theologically beneficial about abuse and violence. I would hope that those religious individuals who attempt to find some kind of utopian idea remember to walk their talk. This group certainly didn’t. Choice is a sacred right, and choice takes time and experience. So for those who choose to enter such a situation, please grant them grace enough to wait until they are adults.

This prison yard was rightfully raided, and while the children are being removed from a certainly dire situation and into a marginal one (foster care being what it is)… at least there is the inclusion of choice and the eventual possibility of self determination, so I commend the State of Texas for stepping up to this most unpleasant decision and circomstance.

I wish the children well, I hope their mothers “wake up” and I hope the abusers are caught and caged.

There’s a long road ahead of them all, and it won’t be easy.

Namaste’

I am very happy Texas is not looking the other way. The government needs to take action against polygamy. This is unethical and needs not to be allowed not matter what views of life anyone has.
All children need to be protectived.

Dora I agree with just two things you said; I too am glad Texas did not look the other way, although I wish things had been handled differently, and all children DO need to be protected. Whether or not polygamy is ethical or moral is debatable, it has its place in history whether we like it or not and is recorded biblically as well. It may just end up being something you will have to ask God about if you ever get to meet him. That too is something I can not answer…

I live in Mesa, AZ the whole State of Arizona is controlled by a hand full of Mormon politicians, This has been going on in Arizona for many years only to be swept under the rug by the Mormons in control. Texas did in 4 years what Arizona has not been able to do in 60 years. This whole situation stincks.

Polygamy is not the biggest issue here. Sex with unconsenting minors and abuse is. I suspect most of these victims will return to their abusers, as is par for the course in most abusive situations. However, if even a handful make the choice not to – thankyou Texas. I feel for these people. Well said “Erickson”.

You say “What gives us the right to interfere with the rights of a religious sect. They were not intruding on any of us and they should have the right to believe the way they choose.” Are you kidding me? Are you saying because they claim to be a “religion” that we should turn a blind eye to what they are doing to those children? That’s the craziest thing I’ve ever read. It is our right and responsibility to protect those children. If they had not gone in and rescued those kids, then we all would have had to answer to that at some point in time. You are right about one thing though, we better hope God does Bless us if Osama, I mean Obama is our next president.

God bless those children and the “innocent” women.

Jan, you need help….

Jan, it is unfortunate that you would put the rights of the abuser above that of the child who can not speak for itself. This is blatant abuse beneath a flimsy veil of religious freedom. What sort of religion condones immoral, deprived behaviors and what sort of person could willingly support such an institution?

Using your logic, it would be fine for one of those men to enter your house, beat, rape, and impregnant your daughter or your granddaughter. It is his religious freedom to be able to have that sort of relationship with an unwilling child.

In terms of these people returning to their ‘home’ and the men leaving, the return to such a place where they suffered trauma could in fact cause further trauma- the feeling of being put back at risk.

The parents who knowingly brought their children and left them there, or the parents who failed to protect these children.. should lose parental rights.

Religious organizations are the source of the world’s record top perverted and horrible acts, this being one of them. How many were tortured by the Catholics during the crusades? How many have the Muslims executed? How many Palestinians have been buried alive by Jewish bulldozers while they took refuge in their homes? How many little boys have been raped by the Catholics? All in the name of God you say? Disgusting. Shame on you. I think that “God” would want all of us to just get along and do good things to each other…help each other out. More people have been tortured and killed in the name of God than any other cause. Stupid.

What I don’t get is why Lawyers think that playing the religion card is going to work. The people broke the law. If they FLDS lawyers win this case then every pedophile is going to create their own religion and claiming they have their faith and religion to save them? Does any of that seem completely wrong? A good religious person upholds the law of the land. Those FLDS should be held accountable and seriously consider the fact that what they did was against the law, but I guess according to them the laws of the land don’t matter, lame! I’m glad the children will be removed and hope that they will be put into good homes where people obey the law.

Those abusers will BURN IN HELL… Cant wait till 6′6″ Bubba is waiting for them in the jail cell…

Re:Tony Petruso

Tony, I am suprised that you are so ignorant of the facts especially in a state with a significant amount of Mormons. The “Mormon” politicians in your state have nothing to do with the FLDS church. The Mormon church does NOT support the FLDS and if the politicians in your state have turned a blind eye toward the problem it is not because they are Mormons.

Those Mormons and their so-called sacred secret ceremonies…scary!

When a group that (inaccurately) calls itself Christian, and yet, forsakes biblical revelation (for the Book of Mormon, for instance), all kinds of bad things can happen.

Mormonism should be monitored more closely…those folks are deluded and dangerous.

Shelby…. WOW that is the definition of Bigot right there.

E from AZ is right..Jan Little does need help!
How can you possibly say they were not intruding on any of us! They certinaly were!!
What about the children..what about the state of Tx? The children are the innocent victims, the consenting adults should be prosectued. Religious sect or not, when the welfare of a child is jepordized, all gloves are off!!!

Yep, I feel the outrage too. This is SO much worse than Muslim men killing their daughters for being on “facebook” or entire groups stoning young women to death for having sex. (Where is N.O.W.?)
I’m not saying I approve cause I don’t. But when will the big guy knock down YOUR door.

To use the argument many use to defend Muslims that sometimes kill their own and want to kill you; it’s THERE CULTURE, there religion. I don’t agree with it. But you might not like my culture. You might decide to knock down my door, just to make sure I’m ok.

Just be careful with your rage and where you allow yourselves to be led. I still haven’t forgotten the many that died at Waco.
Now you can proceed with your hatefull response to my post. How dire I not follow in line!

The FLDS WAS the original Mormon religion. The Mormon chruch today is the offshoot religion, only because they wanted statehood. It’s more closely related than they are willing to admit publicly.

I work with a lot people. Some are Mormons. The traditional Mormons are very glade this strange group is being taken down. I have been to Colorado City several times on business. I believe not all of these FLDS are lunatics, but they certainly have their share. The FLDS set up the compounds in Texas and other places because the Utah and Arizona law enforcers found out what kind of things were going with the young girls and the young boys and set out to take them down. Then this group ran away to Texas. Still Utah, and now Arizona, have Warren Jeffs in jail, and he will not see freedom for maybe the rest of his life. GOOD for Arizona and Utah taken action, and good for Texas learning from the Arizona and Utah lawmen who helped with information to make the Texas case.

The FLDS and LDS churches are VERY different.

FYI – Mainstream Latter Day Saint church not only banned “plural marriage” in the 1890’s
but
a. Marriage age in the LDS church is more often in the early 20’s,
b. Temple marriage in the LDS church requires a state marriage license, which in turn requires proof of whatever the minimum age is in the relevant state.
c. There are no beds in LDS temples.

I live in heavily Mormon populated area and the marriage age is more often 18-20.

My cousin got married in the LDS temple. Stevie B is right, the marriage could not be performed until a legal marriage license was obtained from the State. She was 40 when she was first married and grew up as a Mormon.

That is a strange community Karrin lives in. Most active mormon men are missionaries until they are at least 21 years old. I will agree that that there are a fair amount of 20-23 year old brides, but 18-19 year old brides are an exception. Mormons won’t even let their women in their temple for marriage until they are least 18.

When did the USA abandon the Constitution?? the End will never Justify the Means. if there is a crime Comited why not investigate it and Charge it as the Justice System is Suppose to do. any Persons that dont Condem the actions of the state of Texas has no right to call themselfs Americans. if a wrong was done there is a proper way to figer it out, and Vicimizing these People is not the right way.

Our Founding Fathers would have Revolted by now had this happened to them.

To the few who said that the government should not interfere-you sicken me. These children at this compound grew up knowing nothing other than what their parents believed. They had no access to the outside world, no choices to make for themselves in the aspect of whether or not they believe that the FLDS religion is right or the best for them. Since they knew no other thing, they automatically followed in the footsteps of their elders. The girls are forced to marry and have sex with older (and often married) men for the sole puprose of making more children to follow the religion. You think this is okay? I commend the young girl who made that phone call-she knew that what was happening to her was wrong and she helped many others in the process.
These women and children are being held in the town I live in so I have seen a lot of footage of what is happening at their temporary housing. I can only say that some of them seem to look quite confused, while others seem to be joyful-maybe at the fact that they are hopeful that this is the end to a long imprisonment or theivery of their childhood.

Twang,

Thank you, yes it is strange. I should have been more specific, the boys have usually just gotten back from a mission but many of the girls have just graduated high school. Not all of the boys go on a mission.

The FLDS church is not practicing anything Joseph Smith did not do. He took underage girls as wives as well. One of the many behaviors that angered the communities the mormons lived in.

Read ‘Under the Banner of Heaven’ by Jon Krakauer – an objective look at the founding of the LDS church and the present day FLDS.

If its right for the us to kidnap these people from there culture and bring them into ours, is it not Just as right for them to come and kidnap our children and Force there culture on us.

Think about it, is this America or is it NOT
The day the goverment targets a culture is the day we need a new government. they need to be targeting criminale within this culture.

If we allow the state to break the law to catch a criminal, we may catch the criminal but then we have a broken system, I would rather 1000 Guilty go free than one innocent go to Jail.
If we allow them to change the rules to destroy these people who are the gonna us it on next? me? you? who? where do they stop?

Investigate Crimes, and follow up on leads, heck for all we know the phone call was a April fools joke. We don’t know.

There is always some fruit loop in the bunch. This man is using some one long dead to make his claim on a people based on what was said by said long dead one. Does anyone see the connection between the 50 year old sex offender, Dale Barlow and the local police ? Mayor Fred Barlow and his flunky Mica Barlow. Is everyone named Barlow there ? This is not about religion, because no matter who came after, God came first. Taking young brides by older men was done when there was no population, men only lived until 30, most babies died before one year and we were all on the road side eating bushes. It doesnt take much to make one man out to be God and every one to follow him like a trout on a line. You all better teach your children to be strong and use their heads or they are next in line to believe some dumb sucker and you will scratch your head and wonder where you went wrong. Please people, grab a hold of your kids and tell them you love them and that they are smart.

My heart breaks for the 419 children who have been taken into custody. I can’t imagine the lives they were FORCED to lead on this horrible sex camp. A lifetime of therapy may not be enough to repair the damage that their mother’s and father’s have done to them. It sickens me to think of the fear that all of these children must have lived under.
I am also completely sickened by the comments of people who feel that the government should not have gotten involved – it only confirms that fact that you too are a Sex Offender. Call it what it is… The FLDS wouldn’t have to hide on a secret ranch if what they were doing was right. Come on, we should be protecting all children from violence – not turning our heads because they are hiding under the veil of religion.

The american government of the people, by the people, and for the people…..was lost a long time ago. We are quickly becoming a people of the government who must live according to every increasing government regulation. Government now wishes to be our God, who will take care of us, and tell us what to do. Government even want to take over raising our children by the time the children at 18 months old.

What our government has become is not what the founding fathers would have allowed.

I used to hear a hymn that God would force to man to Heaven, but the Government believes it can and should, but only the Heaven that the government will define. Whatever that is.

Whether it be Karrin’s queer opinion, or others to think these people have no rights that the government does not choose to allow, our culture is now flawed and sick.

The FLDS is way off base from the church they broke off from. They may have similar roots to the Salt Lake City church, but the leaders of FLDS make strange fire on their alters.

Oh wow! Now the POLICE say they found a bed in the temple. And a woman’s hair in the “rumpled” bed to boot.

Uh-oh. I guess it’s all true then.

Didn’t the judge put a gag order on the police? Wonder if it’s the same judge that issued the search warrant.

For those of you not following along…if the warrant is found to be unfounded, and the police find no evidence of any other crime, then there cannot be any charges filed.

Seems that it would have been a better idea to try to find the criminals instead of rounding up the whole party…but…deluded individuals that need the nanny state think that because the FLDS doesn’t believe like they do, that there MUST be government intervention.

If there was alleged abuse going on in your gated community, should the police be permitted to come in and round everyone up until they find evidence of a crime?

Jimmy, the system is already doing whatever it wants to. Nothing or noone is safe from governmental interference if they choose to do so. This is an election year. You will see all kinds of grandstanding such as this by prosecutors, governors, sheriffs, etc, etc. Got to get their name in the public eye and convince everyone they are doing a bangup job to get re-elected. This will be, and has been for years, done at anyone’s expense no matter who it is or how badly it tears up a family, neighborhood, or group. And the pius do-gooders that pontificate on their soap-box saying “go get em” are not safe from it either. All the people who cry, “We need governmental assistance” are now getting exactly what they asked for. Of course, when it comes knocking down their own door for some stupid reason…..then they will cry abuse to the ACLU about that. People better wake up pretty soon…..you are getting a fence built around your country. Ever wonder what that really means? It means you aren’t going anywhere either unless you get permission. Nobody born today knows what freedom really is. I’m 60….and I have seen the progressive and systematic elimination of freedoms by people who want only one thing. Total control over everyone and everything. The sad part is that they can accomplish this because they are asked to by the masses. How sad is that? Lord help us all.

Ronald, “total control over everyone and everything”. Isnt that the way of a human ? Never mind their religion or their color. Control is what everyone wants, control over everything. Everything but death, except for the other fruit loops out there. There is nothing to conquer, there is nothing to climb only turning back on ourselves. Our founding fathers were escaping the control of a king, now we have run up against and ocean and can not keep running, so we turn back on ourselves. God cant help us, because we cant pick one we all like. When it is my time to vote in the next election, I want to see the resumes of the candidates. What have they done, what have they accomplished. Dont waste my time and tell me what you are going to do, show me what you have done. If you have not done enough, I will vote you out of a job. George Bush’s resume, one demented villian gone, 7,000 americans killed. I want someone with a better resume

And yes, I am a Californian

this utterly just breaks my heart It is so depressing to think of these young girls and everything
they have been through and going through.. I pray they open up and many break away from this
and learn to live normal lives poor babies

It’s sick and it’s evil what the female children are put through. Should the state interfere? YES for many reasons, but the answer that should satisfy you all- the law has been broken, in a big way, again and again. Minors are being hurt.

Side note:
The LDS believe:
“ We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
(no.12 of the Thirteen Articles of Faith. http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1)

‘obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law’ vs. minors and polygamy; There IS a significant difference in the two sects.

I believe this is turning into sinsationalism, i personally don’t want to belive this part of the story.
the bed could of possible been for a night watchman. I dought you would every find a regular lds temple unguarded. This story has enough factual reality, without vivid imaganations, but people want to believe the worsed, espesically in a Baptist Strong Hold. bet the judge was Bapist

If this had been a muslin compound this would never have happened
If it did the world woold go up in flames

If you are looking for more background material on the FLDS sect, may I suggest reading Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. It exposed the abusive behavior of the FLDS leaders several years ago.

Texas Has Laws about school attendence, the state could insist that the children go to school, and do the boys go on missions like mainstream LDS boys do.

I don’t know what Massein is trying to say… I’m not sure if that was a threat or just out right hate for Muslim people. Either way, the main focus here is that a 16 year-old girl cried out for help. A cry that no one should ignore. It doesn’t matter the race/sex/creed of this poor young girl. She was living a life so horrible most of us commenting on this blog could not even imagine. Whatever your faith you should focus your energy on the healing of these children and not on the circumstances that surround them. They didn’t ask for this life and the government should step in when they feel that children are in danger.

Here we are in society WE SEND MEN AND WOMEN TO JAIL for having sex with anyone under 18.

BUT we allow A RELIGION to hide behind there “ideas” and promote underage SEX – numerous marriages and kids having kids.

THIS IS WRONG ALL THESE “supposily religious groups” need to be shut down NOW.

It is disgusting. These women children and young boys and girls are being brainwashed that this is correct.

Blatent abuse of CHILDREN & WOMEN.

Here is an idea instead of jail for these BASTARD MEN – let me in a room with them for an hour!
I personally will kick the crap out of all of them AND castrate them personaly.

This way they can NEVER have sex with a child OR ANYONE ELSE AGAIN. JAIL IS NOT ENOUGH for these low lifes.

: )
Have nothing less then a great day,

cfbdesigner

I have to comment again.

GOOD THING SOMEONE NOTICED – Big Brother CANT WATCH and see everything.

THANK YOU TO THE 16 Year old girl for making the call.

What strength she has!

MORE OF US SHOULD HAVE WHAT SHE HAS, and maybe our society, situations would not be so extreme.

Our Government DOES DO SOME RIGHT THINGS. It just seems the BAD is what is talked about and dwelled on. How can we blame the Federal Goverment –

BLAME THE religious organization and ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TURNED THERE HEADS when they new what has been going on and for how long.

PEACE –
cfbdesigner

To all you who believe this should be because of there religion etc….- and our Government needs to stay out of it…..

I BET YOU DO NOT have any daughters.

I wish you a dozen girl babies.

Or if you have boys – keep them away from the GROUPS who like the boys…
we know who they are, so do you.

Pull the rug on your head a little tighter.

PEACE

Very well put Sandra! For those of you who want more information read the book by Carolyn Jessop ‘Escape’.

That this could even take place, is mind blowing! That such people like this can call themselves religious, is even worse – this has absolutely nothing at all to do with either God or religion – this is PURE selfishness, sex manicas, mind controlling with force (both physical and mental), cruel and goes against any and all rules against man kind (i.e. the Geneva Convention). It must at all cost be stopped, and hopefully stopped once and for all. These MEN and WOMEN need to prosecuted at the highest level the law allows and then some.
My heartfelt BIG thanks and hugs go out to all law enforcement officers from all departments – this could not have been done without you – THANK YOU.

despicable and disgusting. even more despicable and digusting that islam condones these types of forced ‘marriages’ as a rule, and no one complains.

islam is slavery for women, yet you don’t hear anyone complaining on their behalf.

look into the abuse of girls and women all accross religions, not just in one wacky cult.

This raid is nothing more than religious persecution of a group of people that the state doesn’t like. The thing just isn’t adding up especially about the alleged “victim” calling for help. Why hasn’t the tape of the call been publicized? Where is this “victim, if there ever was one? I think the whole thing has been made up by authorities to justify their invasion. I hope they sue the hell out of the Texas authorities when this thing is over.

one more thing – this wacko church did not do anything that the founder of mormonism didn’t do! also the founder of islam – mohammed himself – ‘married’ a girl 6 years old, and had sex with her when she was 9, and he was 54!!! and muslims continue to excuse, justify and rationalize this.

these actions are sick and demented no matter what banner they fly under.

Here’s what I am really failing to understand: When Katrina hit, the problem wasn’t WHAT are we going to do with these people, it was HOW are we going to HELP these people? I’m seeing people complain about what it will do to them and their taxes. In the long run, who cares? There are babies and little boys that just need to play with a truck or two and girls that should be worrying about prom worrying about their kids instead.
Don’t be fooled, God was involved here. When that girl cried out for help, He was there and had been waiting for this chance. Pray that as one nation under God, he will take this problem and turn it around like He’s done so many times before.
It’s terrible that the words ‘government’ and ‘religion’ have us all torn up about who’s side we should be on.

Why are so many of you bringing up Muslims in connection with what just happened in Texas? It is like comparing apples to oranges – it cant be done.
Stick with the subject at hand, and leave all other which has nothing to do with it out of it.

GVT intervention usually freaks me out too. There is nothing worse than someone in the GVT “butting in”. GVT is rarely successful. HOWEVER – the blatant – rampant and apparent abuse of children had to be stopped. My hope is that the perpetrators and abusors are removed and that the children, young pregnant girls, young mothers, and women are able to find a way to make a life for themselves within the law – and can keep some semblence of their religion. It must be devastating to lose the life you know AND have your “religion” violated or revealed to be outside of LAW. Perhaps the Church of JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS could demonstrate some of their goodness and take responsibility for these women and children and guide them back to society?

Don’t let the Mormons fool anyone. They say they are “Christians”. THEY ARE NOT. NOT EVEN CLOSE. I have had many Mormons tell me that they are Christians because they believe that Jesus Christ “lived”. That does not make someone a Christian. They tell people this in an attempt to provide justification of their cult. Make no mistake about it…………MORMONS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS…………MORMONISM IS A CULT.

Eddie –
FYI “tapes” of the call generally aren’t taken when the call is made to a private family shelter as happened in this case.
If crimes were known to be committed (obvious as proven by the CURRENT MULTIPLE CHILD PREGNANCIES) how is it important who made the call? All the victims will be helped.
By your logic – an annonymous tip would never be accepted…

This really sadden me alot to hear of such news, these kids are like a birds who have been caged for whole live and when they are free them, the chances of the survival is slim since they are get used to a confine area since birth. They are brainwashed to believe these are normal and how the world works. That why cult leaders always chose isolation and enclose enirvoment to propagate their beliefs.

I pray that the next step is that the governmen who can plan for a futurepath for these kids to ensure that they have a proper education and care.

This reminds me of show Jim Carrey Truman Show where his entire life just revolve around the studio and he thought this is how the world looks like.

With Compassion and Kindness,
Tara

The Fundamentalist part of the LDS church was in truth the original church. It esposes the fundamental parts of the faith. Any religion which would change it’s core beliefs to ‘fit in’ with the government is extremely fishy to me.

I am so glad that the young 16-year-old girl found the courage (or desperation) to cry out for help. While I do not like the ever increasing intrusive nature of the American government, in this case the law enforcement was invited in by the abused for relief from the abuse.

How sad, though, to take children from a sexually abusive situation, which they have always been instructed was normal and right, then plunge them into a culture that through television programming, the movie industry in general, and violent video games, promotes these same “sins” as normal. Most media treats sexual relationships without commitment as normal. Sexual messages of all types is in our faces daily, and few youths escape daily bombardment with it.

I would wish that each of these children could be brought into the mainstream of society as gently as possible, lest they be ravished again in a different manner. Are there homes out there that would take them in without pressuring them to dress or wear their hair in a way contrary to what they feel is right? Allow them have a chance to decide for themselves, without a second brainwashing, how they wish to present themselves? Are there homes that carry beliefs that resemble, without the abuse, what they were used to?

What about a woman’s 18th birthday turns her from a victim to be protected to an abuser to be prosecuted? She needs help far more than she needs jail time. Anyone who judges her too harshly has never lived under the threat of eternity in hell that is as real in her mind as elections in November are in ours. Both are just what we unquestionably know to be true. May the truth truly set her free!

And finally, somewhat off the subject, whatever happened to “their” as the correct spelling for third person plural possessive?

I love the way many of you throw around the word cult so I thought it appropriate to define the word for you. Under these definitions found under Merriam-Webster, please tell me how any religion could not be defined as a cult?
————————————————

cult
2 entries found.

cultcargo cult

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: \ˈkəlt\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheel
Date: 1617
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints would hardly qualify as a small group of people with over 13 million members

I think this is just a shame that our country let criminals hide behing the religion to practice this type of behavior. We in the USA are so quick to put the rapist, drug dealers, thieves, etc., behind bars and prosecute that they have knowingly forgotten that there are polygamist compounds right here in the USA that such awful crimes are being committed against young innocent kids. I really hope our goverment do something strong and serious about this that willl send out a strong message to the others that this is wrong and they will be punished for their crimes. Also, I hope these young girls and women get educated so they can know what their rights are to help educate others.

The men that are involved should be castrated without anesthesia so that they can forever endure the pain, because these young ladies will always have the pain of being violently abused and raped. Personall I think anybody that rapes a child should be castrated. Our goverment should out this law on the books maybe some of this child molestation would stop. This is just a very sickening story.

FLDS, Al Queda, Hamas, Hezbolla, Jim Jones, kamakzies, the list goes on ….. what is the difference between these cults and the communist or nazi cults of atheism …. they are all manifestations of aberrant human behavior that in time will hopefully be weeded out by societal evolution …

Well researched information on this group at http://www.watchman.org

Some of these people commenting on this scare me about as much as the FLDS.I don’t care what religon,rotary club,hunting club or anything else you belong to rapeing children in the USA is illegal
and everyone in this cult participated by not reporting this crime and should be tried as such.
It also scares me that all of these idiots that think this was ok will be able to vote in November

Everyone is focused on how abused the women and female children have been. Yes. They have. It’s horrifying. But the boys and young men have been just as brainwashed and misused. These boys are the product of three generations of this vile and filthy perversion of a “religious culture.” There is religion…and there is evil hiding behind a mask of religion.

Please don’t forget the young men and boys. They are damaged, violated, and have been robbed of their lives in ways that are very real and hurtful. I’m sad for ALL of the people who were born into a 2nd or 3rd generation of this disgusting community because their parents have allowed great evil to be perpetrated on them…male and female.

And by the way…these “mothers” are just as evil as the “fathers.” I’m a mother. There is a primal instinct to protect your children. Hearing your children cry in pain or fear causes a physical response in a mother. What grown woman could watch her 14 year old child dragged into a home to be raped by a 50 year-old pervert and say or do nothing?

The first generation of women in this little sex ranch have as much taint on their souls as the men do…and I pray to God that the state of Texas has enough sense to take these kids away from the mothers as well as separating them from the fathers.

Amen, Del. Amen.

Why is it that the main stream media is not mentioning the Morman and Latter Day Saint connection here to this cult. They may be extreamist and fundamentalist but they were originally Morman. I am surprised that FOX is going with the main stream. WHY?
How come no one is telling us who paid for this Texas facility, where does their income come from etc.
Most importantly, it is remarkable how the Latter Day Saint Morman Religion is completly left out of all connection here. Can you imagine if it was a spin off of fundamentalist Roman Catholics?

What happened to ” we report you decide”

After reading many of the comments submitted by people, I have come to the following conclusions:

1) It’s obvious many of you care deeply about children. Big surprise there…NOT!!!

2) Many of you are totally ignorant about the difference between the LDS church and the FLDS church.

3) In the absence of any real information about what was or was not going on at this ranch, many of you are very quick to pass judgment, not only on the followers of the FLDS religion, but on every other religion that you know nothing about, but happens to be different from what you believe.

4) Many of you are totally oblivious to the fact that while, yes, obviously something wrong was going on at the FLDS ranch, it should be equally obvious to you that the “authorities” are in overkill mode and totally mishandling this situation. It’s like killing a fly with a sledge hammer. In all my years I have never heard of a 911 complaint by one person resulting in the total disruption of the lives of at least 419 children and 139 women and Lord only knows how many men. That many of you can not see or refuse to see how this impacts you is mind boggling! If it’s OK to do this to them, then I guess you have no problem with them doing it to you.

5) Many of you are totally clueless to the fact that polygamy has existed since biblical times and although you may not agree with it, I personally don’t, it’s still with us, may never go away, and still the way some people believe and choose to live their lives. I’m quite sure that just as their are good and bad monogamous marriages, their are good and bad polygamous marriages.

5)

I was wondering if investigaters were going to look into if may be some of these girls were kidnapped? May be worth looking!

I read today (and heard yesterday) that the abusers lawyers (i.e. polygamists) are saying that what the police are doing is like raiding the Vatican. Not exactly. Since when does the Vatican condone underage marriage, sex with minors, or have a special “bed” where they abuse children after so called weddings. Yes, the Church has had problems with abusers, etc., but it certainly wasn’t anything it condoned. And those that did hide it have finally in the past few years gotten their due. These criminals, and any criminals in any religion should be prosecuted to the max.

I feel sorry for the women and children, but does that mean we should let them be abused just because they have been so brutaly brainwashed? If they were murdering people there would that be okay, as long as others didn’t feel uncomfortable? Come on, give me a break!

People, please get your facts straight. For those parroting what they’ve “heard” about Mormons, or have read about Mormons, but have no idea of the FACTS, please be quiet until you KNOW what you’re talking about. Mormons are like everyone else. We believe in the Bible (Old and New Testament), that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for our sins. As children, we are taught all of the Bible stories that you were in whatever church you were raised in. We are not a cult. And, although there were unpleasant things in the past, the Church has evolved over time just as every other religion has.

Although I’ve been known to liken Joseph Smith to a early day version of Jimmy Swaggert, the Mormons believe that he was chosen by God to write the Book of Mormon and form the LDS Church. Everyone that I know in the LDS or RLDS Churches are heartsick about what happened and is happening in Texas, Utah and Arizona by those who have highjacked the religion. Someone earlier made the fantastic suggestion of having the LDS Church help with the transition, counseling and helping of these women and children who have been displaced. I’ve already got an email in to my pastor about doing just that. Thanks!

Oh, and I forgot to add, if the police did think there was abuse going on at the Vatican, let them raid it. They’d have my blessing to find out what was going on – and by the way, I’m Roman Catholic and have visited the Vatican. The cops aren’t destroying the place, they are making sure human beings are okay!!!

Off the topic here, defining sizes are contridicting by itself, currently population of world is 6.6 billion, 13 million = 0.2% of the people, big or small?

Just as i do not agree that majority always win, but sadly at times and fortunate on the other hand is that this is how the world works.

Pyrogathas and Aristotle once scientifically proof that the earth was round, but no one believes them. So who is right or wrong in the end at this present moment? And maybe Earth might become flat again 200 years from now…

But living back into the reality in this century at modern age like this, such practices are really condemn and have a life time damaging impact to kids.

As of now, i hope the kids are properly taken care from now onwards which matters most.

Compassion.

This ranch/church is nothing more than a haven for Pedophiles. It gives them easy access to numbers of helpless children. It makes it even more vile as they say they are doing God’s work. They are doing Satan’s work and not kidding anyone. This needs to be stopped and those children helped immediately. Enough damage has already been to these young lives. They need to remember these children has rights too!

Crystal, you slay me. The Catholic Church is responsible for God only knows how many atrocities in the name of religion. I’m sure in school you read about the Spanish Inquisition who do you think was responsible for that?

This is what I mean when I say people are making comments about things they know nothing about and it’s really embarrassing. I mean has the education system in this country really gone to hell in a hand basket? We are supposed to be Americans, with all these rights and freedoms and yes laws too, but are we really so blind, by our ignorance, and fear of the unknown, that we can not also see that although crimes were being committed, and should be punished, we are slowly being stripped of our civil rights too? What’s it going to take for you to see the light? Maybe they need to come to your church or your neighborhood, and just start hauling all of you away before you realize what’s really happening here.

One person, allegedly, because it has yet to be proven true, called the police, and instead of one person being removed to safety and a perpetrator being prosecuted, a whole community of people are rounded up, children being taken from their parents and religious beliefs are being trampled upon without so much as “hold on there!” I have a problem with this and you should too. I don’t care if you are Catholic, Muslim, or Jewish. Since when did it suddenly become ok for the police to round up people based on an alleged complaint? Where is the victim? What happened to the rule of law?

Obviously, if your religion is different from someone elses, it must not apply…

I was raised in the Amish religion, (don’t get me started…). My friend wanted to get married(amish) when she was 17. She had to take marriage counseling required by the state. These women, could they only think for themselves, should have their husbands move them to Afganistan. Then, perhaps, the American people would all be willing to help them.

Nothing unnerves parents like the brain washing, sex-oriented madness that went on in the name of Jesus Christ at that polarized institution of child rape! The people who grew up in that environment and do not know better are so victimized it is beyond belief! I am very upset that they use Jesus’ name in thier evil-doing. What we have now are a clan of victims that are troubled with the rest of society for the rest of their lives and will have to be institutionalized because they will not be able to cope. Whoever is responsible for dreaming up this child-raping scheme should surely be executed.

While I certainly don’t condone some of the alleged actions here I find the entire prcess very troubling.

Free country?

One of the cornerstones of wour justice system used to be that we were “innocent” until PROVEN guiilty, not by the media or one persons allegations. A court and a jury of our peers with all evidence from both sides presented. Apparently that is not the case anymore. The protection of our women and girls very emotional and necessary but we have seen many cases where initial allegations and accusations do not prove out. Duke lacrosse comes to mind as well as a recent case in England where an angry neighbor made anonymous calls to child protective services alleging abuse. This couple lost 3 of their 4 children to the system and three years later are still fighting to get them back even though it was proven they were innocent and the neighbor lied. One sketchy phone call from a 16 year old girl that can’t be found? Does she even exist? Could she be a rebellious teen just lashing out at the strict family rules she doesn’t like?
My grandmother married at age 14 and bore my father at age 15. She was married to my grandfather for 48 years and bore 3 sons that grew up to be fine men. Today they would be thrown in jail and grandpa would heve to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. It was a different world and country back then but the physicality of men and women hasn’t changed.
How about freedom of religion? I don’t agree with polygamy but I don’t agree with the practices of many other religions either. Should we outlaw fastinging that could be dangerous? How about communion? A minor could partake of the wine. I don’t agree with homosexuality either. Gays die at a higher rate and 30 to 40 years younger on average due to a variety of health issues yet we promote it in our public schools.
Muslims practice polygamy as well. They give their daughters away as young as 6 or 7. If these girls resist they are “honor killed”. There is a large compound, I believe in Pennsylvania, called Isalmburg. I would assume they are one of the next to be raided like this, right? Probably just waiting until the much publicized upcoming parade and celebration is completed. Hah.
YOU may be next comrade.

This is such a horrific example of the deterioration of society in the name of religion. I believe that everyone has the right to worship to whom they want, and how they see fit. However; it is appalling to see these pedophiles using the cloak of God’s will to rape and molest children. I also blame the adult women in that compound for allowing the abuse to go on. I understand that many of them are so abused and brainwashed that they are unaware that this is wrong. But, all it takes is one person to stop the abuse. Now they have raised an entire society of sexual abusers, the young men are groomed to become one of these monsters, and the young women are mothers before they are even old enough to date.

This is truly sad, and the Government should do everything they can to stop these crimes. I get angry just thinking about what those young girls must have been feeling the day that they were “spiritually married” to a man that is as old enough to be her grandfather, and then expected to have children and engage in sexual activity with this man at the age of 13 or 14. They should tear these families apart. Most of these children aren’t even sure who their mothers are, or who their fathers are. I think it is ignorant to believe that these families are better off by themselves, and to lock up the men and leave the women and children alone. Don’t people see that they will just begin the cycle all over again with the young men of the sect? This church tears families apart anyway. The “Bishop” can take a women out of the home and “give” her to another man. Sick, Sick, Sick. and sad. I hope they punish the men and women who contributed to this abuse!

Kevin, you are right on man!!! I just wonder, who is next?

Rich Harrington:

“Most importantly, it is remarkable how the Latter Day Saint Morman Religion is completly left out of all connection here. ”

As it should be. Perhaps this is because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints literally has no connection with this group or with their actions. Those who originally founded the group were excommunicated (they were thrown out) of the LDS church before they ever decided to form their own group in 1930. An excommunicated Mormon cannot rightly be called a Mormon in large part because the LDS Church is not set up to be a franchise. You cannot start your own LDS Church either then (1800s) or now. There is no provision whatsoever either explicitly or implicitly for any breakoff in any of the revelations received through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F. Smith, or Heber J Grant (prophets leading up to 1930). They are acting on their own outside the domain of the LDS faith and not acting with authority. We cannot and will not be held responsible for their actions. They are on their own.

Another thing, there is nothing about rape or compulsion that has anything to do with Mormon doctrine. Rapists get excommunicated in the LDS Church. We don’t knowingly put up with this crap, nor did we knowingly when the church practiced polygamy. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would throw the book at these people, just as we do. Any attempt to pin this on the LDS Church then or now would be absolutely dishonest.

Polygamy in the LDS Church was once taught and we don’t apologize for it (who knows if it ever will again). There is a provision for its practice when commanded. However, rape, sexual abuse, and compulsion was never taught. There is no wink wink, hint hint, turn your head sort of acceptance policy on sexual abuse in the LDS Church. The penalties are stiff (You are excommunicated off from the church.) and they were imposed by the revelations.

Ifti,
Great posts. Sometimes it’s like trying to hit flies with a ballbat. People who are suddenly experts because they have read one book are deluding themselves. I can only shake my head and say it’s been going on for thousands of years. I guess people will believe and say anything when you get a mob mentality going. I’m not defending this group in Texas…if they did what they are accused of then prosecute them. However, I will say that you cannot tie this group to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I’m sure most of the detractors will disagree anyway and I’ll be called on the carpet for what they”know” or have “heard”. So be it. Ignorance is very widespread in this world, both intentional and innocent.

So many of you are simply afraid of something you do not understand. I can see it with the idiot that started talking about Muslims, and his identical twin that starting spewing crap about Baptists. The FLDS are not the original Mormon Church….the Mormon Church is the same as it was in the beginning. THe only two key differences are that they no longer practice polygamy and they allow blacks to hold the Priesthood. Other than that….it is the same as it always was. It does not (and never did) allow sex with underaged females. Even when polygamy was practiced they only married off women who had come of age (according to what was acceptable in that era). Remember that back then you could marry when you passed through purberty. I know my grandmother married at the age of 14 and she was a good Irish Catholic. She was not Mormon (and no…neither am I). But I can assure you that it was not about pedophelia then and it is not now. But with this splinter group (the FLDS), they are just sick individuals. There are several splinter groups of the Mormon Church. I read up on it when Mitt Romney started to run. He made sense to me but I was leary of his religious beliefs so I studied up on the Mormon history….not what dissenters had to say but what everyone said about it. The RLDS Church (Reorganized Church) is the one that splintered from the original Mormon Church (which is the same as the current Mormon Church) following the death of Joseph Smith because Joseph’s wife, Emma and many of the members felt that Joseph’s son should take over as President and leader of the church. Before Joseph’s death, he said that Brigham Young needed to prepare to take over his role. But since the church is run by a form of democracy, the apostles met, prayed about who should be the leader (the church was without a prophet/leader for years following Joseph Smith’s death as many of the Apostles were overseas on missions). That is similar to what the Catholics do when the Cardinals get together and have their meeting to determine who will be the next Pope. However, even after the apostles determine who they feel they were inspired to select as the leader, the entire membership gets to “sustain” or “reject” the individual. If even one objects, they are called in and they have a chance to explain their reasons for not sustaining that individual before the membership. Rarely has that happened, though and never with the selecting of a prophet/president/leader. Since 1890, the Mormon Church stopped practicing polygamy and not all did so. It was done mainly to populate the membership as revealed to their leader from God (according the Joseph Smith). Just wanted to set the record straight.

Also, they are a very Christian religion. The entire religion centers around Christ and his atoning sacrafice and the life he lived on earth as well as what they call the “pre-existence” and afterlife. The Bible is their main book they teach from. The Book of Mormon only is an acount of Christ’s visit to the American Indians back in the time of the New Testament people (following Christ’s death). That is all it is. It is further proof to them that Christ existed and lives still and a testament to the veracity of the Bible. That is all. The other books, the Doctrine and Covenants is the history of their church which contains the prophecies they recieved as the church was growing. It ends shortly after the death of Joseph Smith (who by the way was murdered in prison along with some other church leaders while they were in a jail cell). Joseph Smith was only 32 when he was murdered. He was not an old man marrying young girls and raping them for his own sexual pleasure. The other book they have is the Pearl of Great Price which contains translations from some papyrus that Joseph Smith purchased along with some Egyptian mummies that contained writings from Moses and Abraham. The point I want to make here is that the Bible is their main scripture. Any of the others are only ancilliary to support the writings in the Bible.

I also find it interesting that you all seem so fast to attack them yet you do not look at your own religions and see how yours have all changed. They use the King James Version of the Bible (since it was the one universally accepted at the time the church was founded in 1829). How many of you use that one? The Jehovah Witnesses use that Green bible that has missing scriptures replaced with >>>>> (at least rather than paraphrase what the good Bible says, they choose to delete it but at least let you know they did so). The Baptists use several newer more modern versions of the Bible by paraphrasing what they think it might mean rather than leave it to you to read it, ponder it and then pray about it. The Catholics, with their new and improved version of their Church that came out in the 70’s with what they call “Vatican II” use a Bible that has more books than the King James Version. Guess they decided to add the books they have been holding back from the rest of Christianity since the Nicene Creed designed what we would be able to view. And so on and so forth.

I am an agnostic. I believe all of you have truth if it teaches man to live honestly, live a good life, and be good to his fellow man (and woman). You can judge a church by its fruits. As I see it….the Mormons are bearing no less good fruits than the Catholics, Baptist, Methodist, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, etc. What do you think your God would think of you mocking another of his churches just because you did not understand it? Study it (not read only the crap on it but the real facts) and you might find it is not a cult or demonic. They have no secrets, only sacred rites they conduct in their temples that they choose not to discuss but you can find detailed information on from people who went in, did those very rituals, left the church and decided to reveal it all. It is actually very similar to what the Masons do in their temples. Learn the difference between Secret and Sacred! They have nothing to hide.

My humble opinion and I am sure you all have something to say about it. But someone had to set you all straight on that front. Mormons tend to not defend themselves because really they have no reason to. They have done nothing they need to defend themselves about. When they do, I have confidence (like the Catholics did with the child abuse mess) that they will defend themselves as well.

So back off until you know what you are talking about. Otherwise you sound ignorant and bigotted (which stems from being afraid of what you do not understand in reality).

They picked the wrong state to move too. After Waco, how in the hell could they be stupid enough to open a compound in Texas.

They had a special deflowering bed in a back room in that gigantic white temple. These guys must have went thru the many ceremonies standing tall like Bob on the Enzyte commercials.

I mean if a guy were somehow time warped back to a time when grown men married girls right after they started having a period, a gentlemen would at least play around with her for the better part of a night or longer before they . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . not these 50 yr perverts, these basstards raped the 14yr olds immediately! So the state of Texas has a harem full of pregnant 14, 15, 16 yearolds which dna will match-up to all the, soon to be AF’ed old men. It’s a good thing they believe in polygamy because they will be passed around.

Lesson learned after all the FLDS sympathy whining is over and done: Children, lucky enough to be born in the United States of America, have a Civil Right to a childhood free from sexx, and our sinner/outsider run government will send as many taliban mormon perts to the cornholecottage as we need too, in order to prove our point.

http://www.barackobamapresident44.com/sitebuilder/images/BrighamYoungPolygamy-316×784.jpg
I have the Original 1853 New paper!

I lived in Utah for 12 yrs. The State turns a blind eye Polygamy…but they can’t deny it…it is foundational to Mormonism…without it; Mormonism ceases to exist.

Ervil Morrell LeBaron (February 22, 1925 – August 16, 1981) was the leader of a polygamous Mormon fundamentalist group who ordered the killings of many of his opponents. He is considered by many to have been a mass murderer, justifying his actions with the doctrine of blood atonement. He had 13 wives in a plural marriage, several of whom he married while they were still underage.

It goes on and on…their are right now small towns in Utah, thought the State would deny it…that Practice Polygamy without fear of State prosicution.

Scott, You are proof of everything I wrote….problem is, you are not the only one.

Cuervo, man you rock!!!

I live near where all this is going on, and would like everyone to know that the police are not the ones handling the case. This situation is being handled by Family and Childrens protective services. One thing we must all remember is that we are not trying to criminlize the members of the flds church. Just trying to protect children who have known no way of life except for abuse and child bearing. Those who have commited crimes should and will be procuted and those who have not will not. But most inportently The children and children who have children will be safer now. They have know no other way of life and now have a chance to experiance what we take for granted every day FREEDOM. They will no longer have to live in fear of abuse be it mental, physical, or sexual. And will have a chance to grow into the person they long to be be.

Its against the law for a man to have more than one wife. But perfectly legal to have sex with hundreds, and have children for the state to support, as long as they remain single?

Heck, Cleopatra was only 17 when she died, how young was she when she ran a country and seduced some romans…

They want to act all dumb as if polygamy is on trial. Like one Texas official said: This isn’t about polygamy. Old anti-polygamy laws are not enforced. We don’t care how many commune dwellers share husbands as long as there are no children getting a turn in the bedroom. It’s not complicated.

I wonder what would happen if some girl who was a member of The First Baptist Church of Eldorado annoymously called the Texas Child Protective Services and claimed she was being abused. Would they round up the entire congregation to find the culprit? No? Why not? It’s exactly what they are doing to the FLDS congregants, so it should be ok….Right?

This commentis mostly in response to Jan Little’s comment about what gives the government the right to interfere with a religious sect. I realize that she also commented that she supports Obama, a man who has absolutely no job qualification to become the President of the US, but I would have hoped that she was not completely insane! However, her comments tend to lead one to believe that she is insane. Why would our government want to go in and rescue children who are being sexually abused? Well, I just wouldn’t know the answer to that! Duh! If you wish to stick up for the religious rights of these pedophiles, you need to stop and picture your own children in the same circumstances. Further, for those of you who wonder why law enforcement didn’t do anything for the four years prior to this raid: there are too many bleeding heart liberals who like to twist the Constitution to make it fit whatever purpose they are needing at the moment and a lot of them are attorneys. If law enforcement did not tread carefully and make sure every i was dotted and every t crossed before they just busted down the doors of the compound, then it all would have been for naught. All the pedophiles would end up with a free pass. As it is, and as you have all already seen, the attorney’s for these freaks have already risen to the challenge and have attempted to have the search warrant thrown out. Law enforcement and CPS have been working on this case for a long time and have been biding their time until they had the reason they needed to get a warrant and enter the compound, you can bet on that. I know, I live in San Angelo, Texas and have relatives in Eldorado, Texas. We hear the talk and whispers and have heard the talk and whispers about the YFZ Ranch and, through inuendo and vague speak, we knew that law enforcment was just biding their time until their time was perfect.

Religion and polygamy are just cover-ups for this sexual perversion. These men are PEDIPHILES. Call it like it is.

http://www.kansascity.com/440/story/569504.html

lfti
If an order came down from that FBC pulpit ordering a 14 yr to submit to a marriage, and if the congregation supported this flagrant disregard for our laws, then yes we would round them up, just as we will westborobaptist church when they collectively break our laws.

To MDLWoods:

So, If I get you right, the Eldorado Police and CPS let 4 years of child births and abuse pass by before they found an excuse to go in? Since when does the police need an excuse to raid a place? Probable cause is usually enough to get a judge to sign a search warrant.

My point exactly Candy,

How do you know who the collective is in your statement? No one knows for sure who did what. That is why you have an investigation. People are innocent until proven guilty. By the actions of the authorities that is not what happened here. Everyone was rounded up and had their lives disrupted and the children traumatized even more than they may already be. Now the process of culling the bad seeds out begins. Last time I checked that was not how American justice worked.

Cuervogold — thanks! You said it better than I could have ever done. Since you appear to be a scholar and a learner, here is one piece of information for you … the D&C (Doctrine & Covenants) is a living document (at least in the RLDS –now Community of Christ — Church) and is added to as the President/Profit receives guidance. The last rather large addition was made last year and addressed the Church’s mission in the changing world and how to access new technologies, etc. Pretty shocking, hm?

Have a fantastic day!

I’m surprised that no one has yet blamed this situation on Bush!

Thank you Alex, Setaf, and Cuervogold.

skyking:

“I’m surprised that no one has yet blamed this situation on Bush! ”

Just wait. They’ll find a way.

Skyking:

Bush was ready to invade TX, but the so-called do-nothing Utah and Arizona authorities got Warren Jeffs first.

Surely this will be defended on grounds of freedom of religion, which is BS. it’s sick and people cant go around breaking the law in the name of “religious freedom”. All those men need to be locked up. all those poor kids and young moms and adult women need to be placed in a group home/safe house situation to undergo de-programming and counseling. maybe they can confiscate monies from this CULT to help defray the costs of long-term rehab.

lfti
You don’t see the complexity of this issue. This is a case of institutionalized child rape. They’ll get due process, but these loving looking colonially dressed women are not innocent. They are lucky they are not being charged for aiding. They empowered these pert men with their radicalism. Holding the baby while the molested 15 yr old is beat into submission. These isolationist need the education they will get. They will hate and despise us, but when this is all said and done, they will fully know what to expect if a child is raped around them.

Such an atrosity happening right before our eyes! The term “religious sect” should be substituted with “Pedophile Cult”. What kind of religious sect would breed children and use the females for sex slaves? What kind of God would decree this horrendous action? Some Muslims believe they will be “awarded” 21 virgins, (or whatever the number) after giving their lives to promote their demented cause; they should take note – Jeffs and his followers can apparently have as many virgins as they want, and don’t have to give up their pathetic lives to do so. Perhaps the Federal Government will step up it’s case against these abhorrent groups now and save the children. These brainwashed women and children will obviously need years of de-programing and therapy, but the main point is to get them out of the awful situation they exist in. The saddest part is that they don’t even realize what has, and is, happening to them. Cult leaders like Jeffs need to be stopped, and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

You are all crazy, these people are sick and need to be put in jail. For the person whom is supporting the church, please…. a church of beating, scaring and having sex with 13 yr old childern is not a church!!
I don’t care what state you live in, it’s wrong and illegal!
It’s not just one person, whom is rapping little girls, it’s the whole congregation!! Women included, because they let it happen! Shame on them!!

I live in Bonners Ferry, ID. We have a large group of FLDS living in our community as well. Their illegal activity has been ignored and overlooked for a long time. I know for a fact that a under aged girl was given (by her mother) to a 50 year old man (Shem Johnson). She has had one child and is pregnant with her 2nd. The young lady is still under age, so they do not let her leave the compound because they know the legal ramifications.

They have 40+ school aged children who get no real education. Since these perverted men know better than to legally marry more than one of their harem, the “wives” all qualify to receive assistance that is funded by tax payer dollars.

These men often say that having several wives and many children is a part of their religious conviction. The question is, why does their religious conviction cost me money? If they are so committed to this lifestyle then why aren’t they equally as committed to financing it themselves.

They use the Bible and the teachings of Joseph Smith to justify their lusts. But an honest look at the scriptures reveals something very different. Faithfull men of God always had but one wife. Adam, Noah, Abraham…

The FLDS group will often use King David as an example of God’s sanctioning of men having multiple wifes. But an honest evaluation of King David’s life reveals that he also committed adultery with a married woman, lied, and had the woman’s husband murdered to cover up his indiscretion. So I ask you…did God condone David’s behavior? Of course not. No place in the scriptures does God condone men having many wives.
To the contrary: The scriptures say that a man shall leave his home, and a woman shall leave her home and the two shall become “One Flesh”. Not the many shall be come one flesh…just the two.

I hear FLDS people say things like “there are a lot of guys cheating on their wives, Americans abort 1.5 million babies a year, homosexuality is rampant in this country, why focus on us?”

Of course all of these things are true. But, right or wrong, all of those things are not illegal in the U.S.

Polygamy, and sex with a child are AGAINST THE LAW.

Yes, this country has big problems. But children are being rapped and abused here. When do we stand up for those who can’t protect themselves?

Personally I don’t care what your religious beliefs are. This is a free country. You can believe that God is a purple cow. You can even enjoy sex with more than one woman…that’s none of my business.

But when your religious beliefs cost the tax payer money, and when children are being sexually abused. That iswhere religious freedom stops.

Enough is enough.

Candy, I guess none of us can say since we were not there. Speaking only for myself, I plan to wait til I hear the truth from those who were there. So far, other than the fact that we have some claims of young pregnant girls (maybe they are just short for their size, I don’t know!) all of this is alleged by the authorities. The young girl they claim made these allegations has yet to be revealed if she ever existed at all. The article I just posted in an earlier comment seems to suggest that the marrying of underage girls is a recent occurrence that came about with the leadership of Warren Jeffs.

As far as the women being accomplices, I don’t by that as a general observation. Perhaps there were a few women who allowed things to happen that they could have stopped, but what is your definition of abuse and how do you know who was there to witness it or act to stop it? All of this is alleged. Where is all the proof?

The first instance of polygamy / bigamy in the Bible was Lamech in Genesis 4:19, “Lamech married two women…” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status) according to 1 Kings 11:3.

(1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? The Bible does not specifically say why God allowed polygamy. The best anyone can do is “informed” speculation. There are a few key items to consider. First, there has always been more women in the world than men. Current statistics show that approximately 50.5% of the world population are women, with men being 49.5%. Assuming the same percentages in ancient times, and multiplied by millions of people, there would be tens of thousands more women than men. Second, warfare in ancient times was especially brutal, with an incredibly high rate of fatality. This would have resulted in an even greater percentage of women to men. Third, due to the patriarchal societies, it was nearly impossible for a woman to provide for herself. Women were often uneducated and untrained. Women relied on their fathers, brothers, and husbands for provision and protection. Unmarried women were often subjected to prostitution and slavery. Fourth, the significant difference between the number of women and men would have left many, many women in an undesirable situation (to say the least).

So, it seems that God allowed polygamy to protect and provide for the women who could not find a husband otherwise. A man would take multiple wives, and serve as the provider and protector of all of them. While definitely not ideal, living in a polygamist household was far better than the alternatives: prostitution, slavery, starvation, etc. In addition to the protection / provision factor, polygamy enabled a much faster expansion of humanity, fulfilling God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth” (Genesis 9:7). Men are capable of impregnating multiple women in the same time period…causing humanity to grow much faster than if each man was only able to produce one child each year. Again, these are only “informed” speculations.

I agree with the comments that see this particular branch of the FLDS for what it is. To the poster who was wondering if there was monies to help pay for the counseling, etc., for the women, and children, I wanted to say that there is. From what I’ve read, there is over $400 million dollars in the bank and in the form of assets (most of it coming from our own hard-earned taxes dollars). If anyone has 5 minutes to spare, please visit the “Banking on Heaven” 5 minute trailer that exposes this branch of nutjobs. It is a documentary that was put together by those that escaped. The direct link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc. The full DVD is available at Amazon and other places (look online). THESE PERVERTS, ABUSERS, have to be stopped. We, as taxpayers, have been providing FREE INCOME to these “leaders” for a long time. Thank God that the truth is coming out. Peace to all of you.

lfti quote “All of this is alleged. Where is all the proof?”

COUNSEL LFTI APPROACH THE BENCH!! (pssssss, this is just a blog, not court)

Proof will come or no one will go to jail; luck for them they won’t be tried in a theocracy like they operated.

Strangely I find myself agreeing with alot of what Dave is saying. Indeed, there comes a point where any of our constitutional freedoms are no longer considered freedoms when they affect the freedoms of others. And as he so eloquently stated, the freedoms of the children are being forgotten. In this instance, just like with the Jonestown cult in Guyana with Jim Jones back in the late 70’s, the rights of children are being denied. Their God given right of protection under the law from what is considered morally, ethichally and above all LEGALLY wrong.

But lets now confuse the teachings of Joseph Smith with what these fatheads are doing. Also do not compare their form of polygamy with what the early Mormon settlers did. There was no preying on young girls. These were what (in that day and age) was considered an adult female and they had a say in whether or not they chose to marry. They also got to choose who it was they were going to marry. Of course, those that did not have prospects but wanted a husband and future family were “given” options among men that could afford to maintain a household for them. Typically it was an older man that was capable to take care of them.

Also, I think that you need to study up on your idea of welfare. While these people I know nothing about regarding how they supported themselves financially, I can assure you of two things…..no money came from the Mormon Church (LDS in HQ in SLC) and in no way does the Mormon Church associate themselves with that organization….quite the contrary. Also, the Mormon (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints) does not approve of their members collecting welfare. They have their own version of welfare. They have actually got church owned farms in every community that they have what are called Stakes (a collective of smaller groups called wards and branches). Those farms raise fruits and vegetables and many also have livestock that is run and maintained by the Mormon Church. They pay for this through their tithes and fast offerings at the branch/ward level (congregation). Apparently if you find yourself without money to pay your bills, the church will provide you with food and funds to cover your families needs (or yourself if you are single) and they will find ways to employ you to “work off” what you owe. They do not believe in straight welfare. They feel that it is important to maintain the pride and integrity of the individual by providing them a way to pay back what they needed. Of course, the church does not force people to pay it back and many do take advantage of the generosity of the concept but it is a far better method of dealing with the needy than just “giving” without providing a way to work it off. That can tend to lead to the problem you find now in this country….people who have come to expect handouts and feel entitled rather than grateful for what they get when they are down and out. I admire that about the Mormons. They are generous to anyone, too, not just their own members. They were the first ones to the Gulf States that got hit from Hurricane Katrina….prepared as they are always told to be for just that kind of emergency….to aid those in need (members or not). Ask anyone from that area who was there first and who worked like a well oiled machine that put FEMA to shame. They are even more organized and fully stocked than the Army Corp of Engineers that attempted to deal with the disaster in Miami after Andrew hit. I was there for that and I recall all the mistakes that happened. But I also remember the assistance that was given by the Mormons.

I tell you that you would be far better of a Christian (if that is what you choose to call yourself) to learn more about this group before you attack them like you do. They are not closed, they are not secret and they are not anything like what I keep hearing in these articles. Their problem is that they are the newest form of Christianity formed in this country that technically has survived to become a more mainstream global religion. As such, they are the one the others now mock. Back in the days of the formation of Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists and all of the other Protestant religions, I have no doubt they suffered dearly by being scorned and mocked by the then Catholic faction that was the only widely accepted version of Christianity. The Mormons are still the “new kid” on your Christian block and you are afraid that maybe there might be more to them than you care to admit. It is not a sin to get to know what other religions believe unless you are afraid you do not have a strong enough testimony of your own faith.

But back to the main point….these FLDS people are doing things that are just not defendable on any level. Are they entitled to worship as they see fit? Yes….but not when it involves children being abused. Just not acceptable on the moral, ethical or legal level! No sireee, Governor! They cannot hide behind religion on this one. You cannot have religious freedom if you are teaching something that is a criminal act. Otherwise we could not prosecute these fanatic terrorists (note I did not say Muslim because they are not synonomous) who decide to bomb in the name of their religuous beliefs. Frankly both are just as abhorrent. The loss of life and the loss of innocence are just as valued in the eyes of God (I would tend to believe) as neither can be restored by man! So that is where I have to agree with many of you in regards to this particular group. Just stop trying to equate them to Mormons.

Please watch: “Banking on Heaven” Polygamy trailer – it is only 5 minutes long. Direct link is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc.

Some features: woman beat for 17 years by her mother because she refused to get into her father’s bed, woman hearing her deformed child’s spine/back being broken by her “husband”, Jeff Warren’s “bleeding the beast” (meaning, we as taxpayers are paying for their spiritual marriages and breeding nonsense), $400 million in the FLDS bank; courtesy of our collective U.S. tax dollars. Do not miss this.

Whatever happened to “Seperation of Church and State”? Must not be convienient this time….

Abraham did not have multiple wives. Actually he ignored God when he was instructed to have a wife with his wife Sarah. Sarah was elderly and Abraham did not trust that God would bring them a child through her. So Abraham had sex with Hagar, and it created nothing but trouble. God would then give them Isaac through his ONLY wife Sarah.

Yes, the bible tells of men having multiple wives, but never does God condone such behavior. Yes, Solomon had many wives, he also often committed adultery (forbidden by God in Exodus 20). Solomon also confessed the he was miserable. No kidding?

David committed adultery, lied, and committed murder. God did not condone such behavior, and David suffered consequences for his actions.

No, the Bible is clear that God intended man to marry one woman and the two shall become one.

Just because the scriptures are honest about man’s indiscretion does not (in any way) imply that God condoned such behavior.

Using the bible to justify a sinful lifestyle is a futile endeavor.

Abraham did not have multiple wives. Actually he ignored God when he was instructed to have a child with his wife Sarah. Sarah was elderly and Abraham did not trust that God would bring them a child through her. So Abraham had sex with Hagar, and it created nothing but trouble. God would then give them Isaac through his ONLY wife Sarah.

Yes, the bible tells of men having multiple wives, but never does God condone such behavior. Yes, Solomon had many wives, he also often committed adultery (forbidden by God in Exodus 20). Solomon also confessed the he was miserable. No kidding?

David committed adultery, lied, and committed murder. God did not condone such behavior, and David suffered consequences for his actions.

No, the Bible is clear that God intended man to marry one woman and the two shall become one.

Just because the scriptures are honest about man’s indiscretion does not (in any way) imply that God condoned such behavior.

Using the bible to justify a sinful lifestyle is a futile endeavor.

Dave:

If God never did condone such behavior, I have yet to find any evidence of it in Biblical and Jewish History. What about the Levirate marriage, which was explicitly specified in the Law of Moses? Also, if Abraham would respond to the Lord in offering up his son Isaac, what makes you think he wouldn’t have responded if the Lord had commanded that he take only one wife? Why would that have been so difficult a concept for a man who would not commit adultery. The absolute silence on the matter says a lot.

These women aren’t children they are young adults. My beautiful wife and I got married over ten years ago barely at the age of 16 and 17(would have married earlier were it to be legally recognized). I’ve never accepted or needed government assistance and lived completely independently(now with more than five children). Some people aren’t mature enough to marry at age 30, but that doesn’t mean it should be illegal.

Marrying young has been an acceptable fact for thousands of years. Right and wrong is not and should not be defined by the whims of culture. When one out of four girls under the age of 17 has an STD, its clear that current policies are not working. You can’t keep young adults from sex, so let them do it right: in the covenant of marriage.

1Cr 7:36
“But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of [her] age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.”

For those of you wanting to debate religion, beware, some on this thread are spamming commentary so for those who don’t cut-n-paste, don’t let ctrl + C, ctrl + V pasters work you too hard.

Dave “Yes, the bible tells of men having multiple wives, but never does God condone such behavior”

Dave, go back and read your bible. God told David that he gave him his master’s wiveS. (II Samuel 12:8)

To all of you who are talking about whether God condones polygamy or not, let me say this: We, the taxpayers, of the United States of America do NOT want to pay for welfare and food stamps for those who consecrete “spiritual marriages” in a bed in the temple, those who systematically condone and perform statutory rape, those who believe in “bleeding the beast” (according to Warren Jeffs). We, the taxpayers, of the United States of America, are paying over $30 million dollars a year in welfare and food stamps in order to support these stinky old, perverted goats who run the Best Little Pedophile Fantasy Camp in America.

Cuervo,

Once again you score a direct hit! None of this has anything to do with Mormons and I agree none of what they are doing that is morally, legally, or ethically wrong is defensible.

I’m a Mormon and I just want to say I’m horrified by all this. I can’t imagine what those poor girls have been through and my heart goes out to them. It seems a big difference between the LDS and FLDS churches is the LDS church is adamant that you should not accept anything at face value but pray for a testimony that it is true. I have on my fridge a quote by Elder Russel M. Nelson, an LDS apostle:

“If you want to be like the Lord– more than anything or anyone else– you will remember that your adoration of Jesus is best shown by your emulation of Him. Then you will not allow any other love to become more important than the love for your companion, your family, your Creator. **You will govern yourself not by someone else’s set of rules, but by revealed principles of truth**.” (1997)

It appears the FLDS church is really a self-serving, brainwashing organization. I would be interested to see evidence they spent any of their tithing income on charity or on helping others besides themselves, as the LDS church regularly does. And if you’re warning people that they will be harmed if they leave, then by definition you’re not allowing them the free will to know if your teachings are right or wrong. This is all very scary.

I also want to say, I have a temple recommend and have been inside one of the LDS Church’s biggest temples many times, and I can tell you, real Mormons don’t have sex in their temples. I mean, YIKES. That is just as repugnant to me as it would be to anyone imaging the idea of someone having sex in the chapel of their church. Going to an LDS temple is a beautiful and peaceful experience. What the girls in Warren Jeff’s church had to experience sounds beyond twisted and horrible.

Donna Jenovic:

Thats fine. I am all for self-reliance. While we are at it, lets not dole out welfare for children of second, third, and fourth marriages or for children of affairs. After all, that is serial polygamy.

Perhaps a solution would be to force all children in this country to attend public schools so they can be seen regularly, evaluated on how well they fit in with everyone else, and properly indoctrinated with mainstream America values like the rest of us.

Anonymous, you have got to be kidding. First what are you quoting from? What is Cr? Is that your version of Chronicles? Just curious. Regardless….I am glad you and your wife are happy. It is true many people marry young and are happy but the key difference here is she and you both chose each other. In the case of the FLDS, the girls get no say. They are literally treated like chattel and baby machines. At the tender young age of 14 or 15 (and some younger as they say they found some girls in their early teens that were pregnant and already had children). It has nothing to do with love on either side and the purpose of marriage and the actual sex act is (in a God sense) should be about love, not lust. Otherwise it could be construed as a sin. Anyways….sex between a child and an adult is a sin in at least our country. It is even worse when it is not consensual/forced as is the case here.

Hopefully this will get the attention of law enforcement in other states like Arizona and Utah. This situation is not limited to this one compound in Texas, nor is it limited to the FLDS sect of the main stream Mormon Church. The practices of the FLDS are the doctrines and beliefs of the whole Church. When polygamy was supposedly stopped in 1890 the doctrine of the Mormon Church did not change. Multiple wives is a fundemental requirement of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Well said, Cuervogold.

To Kirk

Where do you get that from? That Multiple wives is a fundamental requirement of the Doctrine and Covenants? Are you LDS? I am not but even I know that. The Mormon Church abandoned polygamy in 1890 when it was declared no longer acceptable by the church. Any member that participates in that behavior is excommunicated from the church. That is a known fact among both members and the general public (that does not have their head in the sand and listens to what they hear and read that is negative about the Mormons). Am I the only one here that is not Mormon that feels they are getting the short end of the stick here? No one is getitng onto the Catholics for what they did back in the days of the Inquisition. A great example of how people that already have a negative feeling about a religion can twist stuff is with the Catholic Church during the scandals over sex abuse among priests. It was only a select few of the priests that had participated in such behavior but due the acts of a few, far too many innocent and good priests are being scruitinized and found suspect of the same kind of sordid behavior and pasts. The same goes with what happened with those involved in the Salem Witch Trials. Those were early Christians (I do not recall which denomination but they were Christians) and what they did was just terrible.

I think the thing that most religious leaders have against the Mormons that makes them believe they are not Christians is because they claim the Mormons humanize God and deify Man. In other words, the Mormons believe that as Man is, God once was and as God is, Man may become. I do not think that is heresy….rather a little more hopeful of a goal than just adoring at some mercy seat for the rest of the eternities. Heresy is defined as anything that is unorthodox. Is that opinion unorthodox, yes…but it does make some senses. Afterall, what do you aspire for? What did Christ aspire for? Of course, there are mixed opinions among you all as to whether Christ and the Father are one in the same and some think they are two distinct persons. That is all a personal belief and while you all respect the fact you can think differently in that regard, then what does it matter if the Mormons aspire to a higher level of perfection than most of you do? I for one, admire that about them as well.

Of course, I look at my life and wonder how I could ever reach that but then again, if I am truly a child of God, then I guess I could expect to become, (just as a puppy grows up to be a dog), a God if I do what is expected of me. It is really quite a nice explanation of why they are here and where they expect to go. Make sense to me. Another thing you all might find interesting is the Bahgvadgita. It also has some very insightful lessons on the purpose of life (as does the Koran and the teachings of Zhen and the teachings of Buddah).

Get your heads out of the whole you bury it in and learn a little bit about the world around you and you just might be surprised how similar many of you are and you might learn something that could strengthen your own faith and understanding of your God. Tearing down another’s beliefs that are not the same as yours is bad (unless they are harming someone). But worse than that is to out and out lie about what other churches teach and do. It just seems the Mormons keep getting the raw deal and have since they organized in the early 1800’s. Guess it is that old “Refiner’s Fire”. Maybe that is why they are such a strong and proud people. I have no ill feelings toward them and only admire and respect them for what they stand for and believe. At least they do not say bad things about you all.

Kirk

“When polygamy was supposedly stopped in 1890 the doctrine of the Mormon Church did not change. Multiple wives is a fundemental requirement of the Doctrine and Covenants. ”

The doctrine of plural marriage is a subset of eternal marriage. Section 132 is a revelation on eternal marriage itself, including both monogamous and polygynous kinds. Provisions for the authorized practice of polygamy are indeed given in the Doctrine and Covenants. However, if you would read the section, you would also find that only the Lord through the direction President of the Church can open the door.

However, nowhere in scripture is plural wives specified as a fundamental requirement for salvation per se. That is flat wrong. Neither does Mormonism rise or fall with its practice as some have suggested. It DOES rise or fall on eternal marriage, which includes polygyny, but not on polygyny itself.

So while provision for plural marriage is still in the revelation, its practice lies dormant unless, or until it is reauthorized through the head of the church. The LDS Church is not out of line with its doctrines on this matter.

When I first heard the stories coming from ElDorado, I thought I’d never heard anything that made me so sick…until I read some of the ignorant, bigoted, hate-filled comments posted below.

My comments:

1. The sexual abuse that is alleged to have taken place in this polygamous sect has NOTHING TO DO WITH MORMONISM. The Mormon (LDS) church has NEVER taught, encouraged, or condoned sexual abuse or marriage without proper consent, and before the LEGAL age requred by the government.

2. Some of the best teachings on marriage and family, on equal partnerships between men and women in the operation and management of a household and in the raising of children, come from Joseph Smith. More American families would be wise to follow those teachings – there would likely be fewer divorces, fewer broken homes, less depression, neglect, and less abuse of all forms.

Example:

3. It does a great disservice to the 13 Million members of the LDS church worldwide (myself included)- who are generally known for upstanding families and their strong, conservative moral values – when people start bashing our church and perpetuating the same old lies and exagerations about our founder and prophet, Joseph Smith.

Please, by all means, let’s voice our outrage about the abuse – as the song says, “God Blessed Texas!” Let’s have a healthy debate about the boundaries of religious freedom (when it applies to consenting adults). Let’s not, however, in our very emotional outcry for the welfare of these children (girls AND boys), involve 13 million people who are in no way culpable in this horrible act!

I personally am outraged at this polygamous sect and its leaders. As a “Mormon,” it makes me mad that they have appropriated the term for thieir twisted use, and that the mainstream media continues to allow them to do so. Describing Warren Jeffs as a ‘Mormon’ is akin to calling Adolph HItler a “Christian.” Give me a break! No religion that I know of condones this sort of behavior, so please stop the anti-Mormon, anti-Christian, and anti-religion ranting and stick to the facts of the allegations. Better yet – engage your mind in a more productive use and think of a positive solution – for everyone involved!

The LDS church has a problem. Joseph Smith DID endorse Polygamy, as did Brigham Young. The only reason the practice was abandoned by the church was because the Federal government refused to allow Utah to gain statehood unless they publically denounced the practice (it’s a matter of public record).

Joseph Smith not only had multiple wives, but several were under the legal age of consent. I know that the church teaches a different history, but researchers like Richard Abanes have done outstanding job detailing the history of the Mormon Church with all the evidence and footnotes necessary to back up his report.

You can see the evidence for yourself in a book titled One Nation Under God’s by Richard Abanes.

The FLDS group is simply keeping with the teachings of Smith and Young.

I have no problem with mormonism, I have a problem deception and dishonesty.

And for the record, the children being abused by the perverted old men who lead the FLDS are not young women. Many are 13 and 14 years old. Just because they have had their period does not make them adults. The United States Government has designated 18 as the legal age of adulthood and consent.

Aside from history, culture, religion, politics, etc…. Laws have been broken and obviously abuse has occurred. Its that simple. It is a sad situation that the children are caught in such a horrible situation. Not only them, but many of the adult probably don’t even realize they were committing crimes. This is a unique situation, where the investigators felt it would be in the children’s (those of the utmost concern) best interest to be taken into custody, considering the initial scene police found…

America is a great country in which we have freedoms people in other countries do not. Yes we have a complicate system, and at times our government seems restrictive, but the beauty of our judicial system it is that the laws are defined without religious or moral beliefs an do not allow for harrasment or discrimination without consequences. They are put in place by the people, for the people, the only time morals get involved is when a crimal is judged by his peers.

I have no problem with others personal or religious views or cultures that are different from my own. I respect those who choose a simpler life than most and are self sufficient (i.e. the Amish or Quakers) as I hope they respect mine. However those groups don’t hide their beliefs from the rest of the world. They don’t lock themselves away from the rest of us. They don’t ignore our laws, nor do they restrict their families from having choices or abuse them.

I am very disturbed that so many of you believe that what this group practices is ok, or are insulting law enforcement and our government for executing the laws we the people put in place. If so many people have such a problem with our government why aren’t you making a difference? Why aren’t you on capital hill making better laws? Most of all I’m beside myself that so many of you are so ingnorant that you believe the government is persecuting this group because of their religion. Any other crime of this magnitude would be treated the same requardless the religious ties.

Have a good long look at this polygamist cult in Texas and you will see historic Mormonism. Read the following accounts, and Mormon exposes, and you will see all that is unfolding in Texas today: Female Life Among the Mormons; Wife No. 19 — Ann Eliza Young; Bill Hickman, Destroying Angel; The Life and Times of John D. Lee; the 1905 military report to the Congress of the United States on the Mountain Meadows Massacre; and on and on. One historic Mormon was “married” to all his nieces, the youngest only two years old. The colony from which Warren Jeffs and these others have come was begun in southern Utah, one of the most fundamentalist bastions of the Mormon Church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) in the last quarter of the 19th Century. The church proper was forced to abandon polygamy because of pressure from the U.S. Government so, officially, it did. However, what really happened is that the practice only went underground. Polygamy was a religious doctrine and accepted by the members – men, at least – as a true doctrine by both the founder, Joseph Smith, and later by the more powerful leader/prophet, Brigham Young who had 26 wives and 58 children. The Mormon, or LDS, Church has gone to great lengths to conceal and cover up their history, but what is happening in Texas with this fringe group exposes all the truth of historic Mormonism. Historically, women who protested were tortured, branded, beaten, or hung. Some of the best desert trackers in the country today live in Colorado City, Utah. They make sure they can find anyone who tries to flee. For generations, this church has perpetuated slavery of young girls and women and it’s time for it to come to an end, once and for all. Even for them, it’s a free country.

Surely, the issue is not polygamy but why “spiritual marriage” should require “physical” consummation? And, the issue is not (necessarily) age, but consent. Even if one argues religious freedom, is everybody free, or only the men? It seems to me that by isolating themselves and their offspring from the rest of the world, they have systematically disenfranchised women and children, denying them access to education, opportunity, freedom of thought, and pursuit of individual paths to happiness. I, too, do not blame just the men. What is wrong with the women that they actively and passively participated in this travesty? What a sad commentary on human rights.

I would like to say that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I am totally disgusted by these polygamist people. Members of my church 100% condemn what these people are doing and we completely disassociate ourselves with it! Saying that we have anything do with it is like saying that the weird Branch Davidians in Waco should some how be linked to all Christian churches. It is offensive and annoying that some bloggers try to make the link.

@ Cuervogold

1 Corinthians King James Version, a rather good rendering of the koine Greek.

I’ve yet to be convinced that these girls are ‘forced’; They grow up in this belief system and I doubt many ever question it. In fact, I find it suspicious that they still haven’t found this young lady that supposedly called in.

Government is NOT God, they can never dictate what is sin. Popular vote doesn’t determine right and wrong.

Dear Mary Been There,

I’m sure you must be aware of all the wrongs that the Catholic church has committed for nearly 2000 years or so, I suppose we have to believe that the Catholics are still guilty of the crimes committed by their predecessors. I don’t personally know of one member of the Mormon church that practices polygamy today, nor do I believe that there are any who are active faithful members of the LDS church. You can believe what you like, it’s a free country, for now, but stop trying to link the FLDS church with the Mormons. They don’t deserve it any more than the Catholics need to keep worrying about what happened in their church’s history. If you are a Christian, and I am assuming you are, the Lord says to forgive and forget. All you are doing is proving how little Christlike love you have within you. The issue here has nothing to do with the LDS church, but what a sick twisted lot of men who claimed to be acting in the name of religion have done to the people they were supposed to be leading in righteousness. The Bible says that by their fruits shall you know them, well we obviously are finding out what the fruits of this group are. Condemn them, but stop blaming others. And to you I say, be careful, your fruits are showing…

Just dropped over here from another blog, and this discussion seems to be going the direction most other blogs have taken..lets hate people.

First, I do not agree with this FLDS church, I think they abused these kids and those men responsible should stand trial.

I am also seeing a huge lack of knowledge concerning the very origins of so many “christians” here.

Do yourselves a favor and read something, you would benefit from studying the lives of Luther, Calvin and other reformists. These were men that were seeking knowledge and light, and in their quest, they started entirely new religions.

Yes, all you baptists, Lutherans, nondenominational and other PROTESTANTS, your very beginning came about because you protested against the catholic church and formed your own…..sheesh

Dave:

“The LDS church has a problem. Joseph Smith DID endorse Polygamy, as did Brigham Young. ”

You are creating a straw man argument with your ranting against people who would deny the polygamy of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Nobody is denying it. Nobody. There is no cover up, denial, or secrecy on this matter. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young endorsed polygamy. (Would it help if I chanted it 100 times.)

The conditions under which it operated were also endorsed by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young too and that is what you fail to understand. The practice of plural marriage was ALWAYS subject to authorization by the President of the Church and WAS NEVER stipulated as a condition of the highest degree of salvation for all people at all times as I have explained above. Eternal marriage, on the other hand, was so specified. The LDS Church is in line with its doctrines. We know whereof we speak.

“The only reason the practice was abandoned by the church was because the Federal government refused to allow Utah to gain statehood unless they publically denounced the practice (it’s a matter of public record). ”

And every member of the LDS Church who has scriptures has these documents inside so they can see for themselves. Doesn’t sound like denial to me. President Wilford Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith ALWAYS had the authority to seal or loose, to allow or disallow, the same as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did, regardless of whether you think they were acting as prophets or not. They still hold the keys that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did. If the practice were to be reauthorized once again, they would still have all the authority that they would need to do it.

In reality, the “real” Mormons will practice when commanded and not practice it when not authorized. There are no special revelations for the practice of polygyny to anyone other than the President of the Church in Mormon doctrine, period. That is rock solid, hard core, true blue Mormon doctrine that you and I can take to the bank every time. Anybody that tells you that he has a special access to polygyny other than through the normal channels of the church is an imposter and a fraud. The conditions are so stated in Doctrine and Covenants 132. Read it.

Dave, Rich Harrington, Mary Been There, Scott,

Why do you hate Mormons so much? What have they done to you?

I am a member of the LDS Church. These radicals in Texas are nowhere near the truth of the LDS church and are giving a bad name. The LDS Church is the best Church I have ever gone to, and I have gone to many. The religion, values and morals are clean and pure. I am a good person and I defend the LDS Church and always will. Polygamy is not a part of the LDS Lifestyle.

Ifti

It is not an issue of who do they hate….more like an issue of not fully understanding to make an intelligent assessment. That is all. You cannot truly hate something you do not understand. That is part of the reason I do not belong to any specific “organized” religion. All have something of value to teach. While I may be reaching….even this sick group may have some redeeming value but when they decided to perpetuate what is tantamount to sexual abuse on minors, then yes….that is where the goodness stops. Who cares if the child is not protesting. They are too young to understand what is right because they have brain washed. It is not just by our standards but by the very church they attempt to say they are affiliated with. While they may be a splinter group, they still claim they base their basic beliefs on the Mormon doctrine and scriptures and it is very succinctly stated in those very scriptures that it is not acceptable before the church or God. So what is up? You cannot have it both ways. Either you follow the basic tenants of your church or you make it up along the way to serve your own purpose. The Mormons do not practice polygamy now. They do not hide the fact they did for about 50 years in the early years of their formation but they do not practice it now. As a matter of fact, they totally disavow that practice and excommunicate members that participate in that practice. Also, contrary to what you think, not all people in Utah are Mormon. As a matter of fact, if you look at the demographics of the city of Salt Lake, you will see that it is less than 45% Mormon. And of that percentage, much less are active members. Keep in mind that when the church states it has a membership of 13 million that is all of the people on their roles which includes those that are inactive or completely left the church. It is probably more like 10 million but that is still impressive for as young as the church is. But with that in mind, Salt Lake City is not the Mormon stronghold you would think. You actually have more Mormons in Nevada and California than you do in Utah. Little known fact outside of the Mormon Church. As a matter of fact, more than 40% of their members come from South and Central America. That is because those people rapidly embrace the Book of Mormon since it is about their culture and history (and they recognize some truth in it). It kind of rings more true to them.

I just think that it is a sad state of affairs that you are all being so nasty about other religions. There is absolutely nothing gained by finding fault with Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Jewish or Muslim. Just be glad they all believe in something and worship a Supreme Being. Just because they call Him by a different name does not mean He is not the same God. RIght! Get over it.

Lets not forget what the real issue is here, the situation involving the alleged abuse of minors. That is the real issue. Not if the FLDS Church is a real church or not. They possibly did something that is very abhorrent and seriously illegal (that being forcing a child into a sexual situation under the guise of marriage). There is a legal age of consent for a reason. The original Mormon church abides by those laws and so should this group. It is between a legal age and the other side is “consent”. Informed consent not brainwashed consent.

lfti, I appreciate your remarks, but I don’t hate Mormons. What I hate is a hierarchy of deceivers who make up a power and business empire that masquerades as a church. One of the Mormon Church’s own leaders said this around 1930: “This is no religion, but it’s the best fraternity around.” I’d say a pretty good fraternity was operating in Eldorado, Texas, too. And you missed the “been there” part of my name. I have been to Colorado City many times and have met members of the Barlow and Jessop families. I know about the raid on Short Creek in the 1950s and have read firsthand accounts of what transpired. I know what I’m writing about. I wrote what I did here because the LDS Church pretends to be shocked and repulsed by what Warren Jeffs and his followers are doing. They continue to deny any connection. They lie. As far as your assumptions about me and my beliefs, I wouldn’t make them. I know far more about Colorado City and the Mormon Church, I assure you, than you know about me.

The splitting hairs on biblical verses is getting old. Who cares? I know that I don’t. All I know is that systematically raping girls who have barely reached puberty is called STATUTORY RAPE and should be prosecuted to the fullest measure of the law. Secondly, we the taxpayers are paying for sexual perversion of the leaders who run the “Best Little Pedophile Fantasy Camp” in Texas. I have no problem paying for welfare and food stamps for people who need it. But I refuse, simply refuse, to be part of Warren Jeff’s “Bleeding the Beast” campaign, in which the government and the taxpayers are systematically taken down by paying for their “religious rights” nonsense. Prosecute and jail these CRIMINALS. Let them go into “spiritual marriages” with the 6.6 foot bubbas in prison.

Comment by Ifti
April 10th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Perhaps a solution would be to force all children in this country to attend public schools so they can be seen regularly, evaluated on how well they fit in with everyone else, and properly indoctrinated with mainstream America values like the rest of us.

I must disagree with this statement . We aren’t Mormons , but we do home school . And it ISN’T to hide some kind of immoral acts or abuse , but in fact to keep our children from becoming “indoctrinated” in the mainstream values . Most children that are home schooled are as adjusted as public school children . They are also very well behaved , with good manners and the right kinds of values . And there is a lot of immoral behavior that happens behind the closed doors of public schools everyday . Like it or not , outlawing homeschooling is not the answer . Making the laws stricter on the perverts that harm our children is ! If you were to send the perverts to jail for 20 years of hard labor breaking rocks or digging ditches for child rape/molestation , that might just do the trick . Make them eat stale bread and brown water instead of watching cable and working out in a weight room after a decent meal provided by the
taxpayers . While that may not stop it all from happening or stop them from thinking about it , I bet that
would stop the majority of the abuse .
Ummm , Sorry to all those people out there who think that the criminals should be pampered and treated fairly … try telling that to the 13 year old that was raped and ruined . Ask her if she was treated fairly . I think not .

James:

“I am a good person and I defend the LDS Church and always will. ”

Romans 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Psalm 53:3 Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

And Yeshua (Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good…(Luke 18:19)

Are you really good James? The Mashiyach (Messiah) says that there is none good.

And to Alex:

The LDS church teaches “Celestial Marriage” yet Yeshua said that in heaven there is no marriage:
“people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)

Mormons claim to follow the scriptures, yet their doctrines all contradict the Holy writ.

I do not hate mormons. Nor do I hate muslims. I love mormons and muslims and I am saddened by their blind devotion to a lie. I do however hate Mormonism, and Islam because they lead people from the truth.

Interestingly, both religions were founded by a single false prophet (or should I say profit) who was obsessed with power, perversion and lust.

lfti,

Are you holed up in a cabin in the middle of nowhere with a stock pile of food, weapons & water?

They now have an “insider” who is giving the authorities most of their information now. The girl did not call the police, she called a shelter. 139 women left on their own accord.

If the FLDS at this ranch were not doing wrong, then why did they have this huge fence around this 1700 acre compound? Is the “outside world” really that bad? I have two children and we’re not holed up in some fort somewhere to keep them from the outside world and they are two fine outstanding citizens.

I guess you think if someone is caught committing murder, standing with a gun in their hand, that they should just be left to run free until their trial and they are proven guilty? What more proof do you need than a 16 year old girl with 4 children??????? Getting pregnant at the earliest of 12 years old??? SEVERAL young teenage girls pregnant??? Something is definitely wrong with that picture. I really don’t think all of these are virgin conceptions!!!!

And as far as what would they do with “Us Baptist” if this was going on? Well first of all, you don’t see us trying to hide our religion or our practices. How many Baptist churches do you know that all their members live in a compound with a fence around it trying to hide what is going on??? Haven’t seen any where I’m from.

Don’t even get me started on this $400 million they have in the bank. I’m surprised you’re not livid about that lfti!!!

Mary been there:

“I wrote what I did here because the LDS Church pretends to be shocked and repulsed by what Warren Jeffs and his followers are doing. They continue to deny any connection. They lie. ”

Pretends to be shocked and repulsed, huh? And of course, you have proof of this. Was this one of those deep dark secrets held by of the elite upper eschalons of the Mormon hierarchy that the regular temple attending shlubs like me don’t know about? Was there a confidential dossier in the inner sanctum of the LDS Church Headquarters that your contact on the inside escaped with his life to bring to the world? Get real.

It is really sad in today’s age that so many people choose to be so ill informed. These people are NOT MORMONS! They have nothing do to whatever with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. People who want to make to make the link are really just trying to justify their bigotry. They see things like this and say see that is why I feel justified in my hate and fear. When if they (especially Christians) took even 2 seconds to see what real Mormons stand for today they would see someone who would stand beside them and fight for the same values they stand for.

Alex,
We get it. You are a mormon. You like being a mormon. That’s nice. If you like your religion, then by all means be the best mormon you can be. As far as religions go, they are all pretty much the same.

There is however a huge difference between religion and faith.

Only faith and a relationship with the Creator (YHWH) based on His terms (Yeshua H’Mashiyach) will save us. The relationship is not based on religion, nor is it based on your terms or what you want to believe (is mormonism).

Should you ever care to know YHWH in a relational way (as His child) there is a way to do that. It requires that we let His word say what it says.

You can learn more at yadayahweh.com

As far as the LDS church condoning this lifestyle, of course they would not do that publically.
Just like Muslims don’t publically condone Islamic terrorism. But it’s widely understood that most muslims throughout the world danced in the streets on Sept 11, 2001.

All the FLDS members are doing is being true to the teachings of your “prophet”. I am sorry if that embarrasses the LDS church, but that is your family.

I am so thankful that God has chosen to expose the practices of the LDS Mormon Church! I will pray that God sends true Christ followers to these poor victims of child abuse and share with them the truth of His Gospel. I will also pray that more are exposed and brought to justice! Praise God for His faithfulness!
Salvation and eternal life are given to all who repent of their sins, accept and believe in Christ Jesus. God came down to earth save us all. His mercy and forgiveness were given to all. Please receive His FREE gift, and begin your new life in Christ Jesus!

Dave,

“As far as the LDS church condoning this lifestyle, of course they would not do that publically.
Just like Muslims don’t publically condone Islamic terrorism. But it’s widely understood that most muslims throughout the world danced in the streets on Sept 11, 2001. ”

Darn, I must have missed the super secret Warren Jeffs sexual perversion celebration held at the church. I must be out of the loop.

Honestly, why would we do such a thing? Why do we enforce church discipline among our own people for sexual perversions, fornication, adultery, rape, murder, etc. if deep in our hearts those are the things we celebrate in the first place?

I have to agree with Alex on that count. Who is fooling who here? Sounds to me like Mary Been There and poor misguided Dave don’t have the slightest idea about what they are talking about. I thought I agreed with you buddy but I guess I underestimated you on your understanding and acceptance of beliefs that just might differ from yours. Who made you two the ones that decide who is right and who is wrong? Frankly all of you think you are right. Whether you are Baptist, Mormon, Jewish, Catholic, Methodist, etc. You all claim to follow the Bible (the Jews do accept the old testament as scripture) yet you seem to have missed the concept of acceptance of all people and allowing them all to think as they wish. You are not their judge so who do you all think you are to judge a faith like Mormon. I would hate to be you guys when your time to be judge comes along. Until you are perfect, if you truly do believe in Christ as your Savior, then I highly recommend you clean up your own backyards first. Last time I looked, you were all warned in your scriptures to NOT JUDGE OTHERS. Just because you have your standards and beliefs does not mean you have the right to expect others to accept and abide by them. In the case of this group, the FLDS. though, it is different. They are actually breaking the law.

Stop spreading false statements and ideas about other churches. It only shows what true asses you all really are. I am glad I do not belong to any of your religions. If I truly thought the Mormon church was the one and only, I would be Mormon. But I am also not any other religion but I do believe in Jesus Christ and the example he taught just as I accept teachings of other great prophets and teachers of the past. You can learn a lot of good things from all of them. But when you keep stating horrible and malicious things about something that has nothing to do with you (and in the case of Mary Been There….ooooh….she was in the physical locale of “THEM” for who knows how long….and I guess now we should take what she has to say as Gospel truth regarding “that group”….I lived with the Mormons for 13 years and I do not purport to be an expert on what they teach and believe…so Mary Been There….stop making an ass of yourself stating things like people should believe it as fact). I just know that Mormons are good honest people. Most of them but just like everyone else, there are some that are not so good and some that are mediocre.

Stop maligning each other and just drop it. Keep on the subject of this blog…..FLDS abusing children under the guise of religion. Even that statement about the money is from a Youtube video where what looked like some red neck militia skin head stating that last time he heard the FLDS Church had 400 million in the bank and in assets. Well I guess I need to take that as God’s honest truth, eh? Yeah right! You all believe too much of what people say and take it at face value. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. There may be some good things about the FLDS group and what they teach but it is all but diminished by this one simple and now defining revelation that they are forcing young girls into marriage and sexual activity (which last time I checked was illegal in all fifty states).

That is all that should be discussed here. Not whose church is right or wrong or who is a true Christian. None of you are behaving like true Christians The Mormon’s responding just as well as the anti-Mormons. The best defense is no defense at all if you have nothing to hide and frankly, none of you should have to defend your faith. That is something that is personal and private. Not something you need to be accountable to your neighbor for (last time I checked). Get with the program and stop bickering over your faith. It sickens me.

Dear Cuervogold–
I sure hope I never understand the rape of children. This is not an issue of religion. This is an issue of the raping of children…how can the arguement go beyond that point. The police located a 16 yr old girl with 4 children. DO THE MATH! You say that people are afraid of what they don’t know…I am afraid of men who feel they have the power to rape and abuse innocents. This is in no way an issue of religion.

Ifti–take a break from the crazy words you splatter on this screen and read the account of Carolyn Jessop. She tells her tale…then justify your position. I promise you won’t be able to do so.

Why isn’t there a picture of the sixteen year old on the web for people to view, for identification purposes with which the authorities could be alerted if this girl is seen.

Dave you are truly, truly misinformed. These people are totally outright publicly disowned and condemned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I see that hate and bigotry have taken a hold on you. These are people are victims of horrible, horrible men! This is not the “true practice” of what people call “Mormons”. They have nothing whatever to do with Mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have time and time again publicly condemned any polygamist sect for the last 100 years!

I am a Mormon (that is LDS, not FLDS for all of you who are still confused on the matter) and a product of polygamy. My G.G.Grandfather had two wives. He had to flee to Mexico after the US made it illegal for him to keep his whole family together. To say the least, I have a bit of a soft spot for those who still believe in its practice.

That said (and back on subject), I do not, in any way, agree with or condone what has been going on here. The God given free agency of these women and children has been subverted by those in authority over them. I say it is past time for them to answer for their crimes (just like W. Jeffs is doing right now .

I had another thought that has not been addressed yet on this forum about what some have said. It is in regard as to why the whole group was rounded up and removed by the “Government” when it was just a 16 yr old who called in. My guess is that when they went to check on this one girl who called in, they observed the other issues now coming to light (many pregnant young girls and such) and the original issue snow-balled into what it is now. I say kudos to the Law Enforcement Officials for being observant enough to help all of those there who didn’t have the strength or ability to get the help and protection they needed.

Cuervogold, Alex, and Ifti, thank you for your insightful comments. Dave, Mary B.T. and Thankful for TRUTH… get a clue will ya.

Lastly, to all those who keep giving book references (and such) that you claim will expose the truth about the LDS church, it is like you are telling people to check out “Mein Kampf” by one A. Hitler to learn the truth about the Jews. You have to consider the source!!!

JCarp, you said: I am a Mormon (that is LDS, not FLDS for all of you who are still confused on the matter) and a product of polygamy. My G.G.Grandfather had two wives. He had to flee to Mexico after the US made it illegal for him to keep his whole family together. To say the least, I have a bit of a soft spot for those who still believe in its practice.
How can you condon having multiple sex partners and multiple children born to only one father? In a society that will look upon them with pity, and should they continue in the practice themselves later, probably seen as perverted and selfish. I cannot believe that with a large family at this point in time, that, that is wise financially for their sakes. Proper clothing, a good education and healthy food, as well as healthy living conditions are not cheap.

This blog is so badly written that it is hard to follow. Sometimes it is in past tense, sometimes it is in present. Most of it uses passive voice, is very indirect, and it uses a lot of excessive words and functionalist language. I am an English teacher so I may be a bit picky but I would think that journalists should have higher standards for good writing..Whatever you do for a living, do it well.

For example, Lineback writes: “The teenaged mother stated that she began to be abused shortly after she started living at the YFZ Ranch.”

Since journalists should try to get as much information across as possible, avoid PASSIVE VOICE. Not only is it bad English but it is vague and indirect. Most importantly, it fails to identify the subject and the object, i.e. who is doing what to whom. “The girl began to be abused” fails to make explicit that someone is abusing her and to identify that person. Unfortunately, Lineback is not the only example of this type of writing. How often have we heard journalists write: “800,000 people were killed in Rwanda” or “6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust” or “The tax payers’ money is being spent.” This is irresponsible journalism – people were not mysteriously killed; rather, someone killed them. It is the job of journalists to give us as much information as possible and to responsibly formulate causal relationships by including a subject!

As a suggestion, try reformulating the first sentence of this article this way:
“The teenage mother stated that her husband began abusing her shortly after she arrived at the YFZ Ranch.”

Rebekka

Rebekka Friedman:

I’ll be sure to double check my grammar.

to all of those ‘good mormons’…how is it that you continually turn a blind eye to these law-breakers within your borders??? I have yet to see the law of the land upheld in Utah. i guess it would be hard to turn your back on those that tithe to your organization. clean up your own community!

Concerned,

This raid is not about polygamy. Both the LDS and the FLDs, WANT THIS TO BE ABOUT POLYGAMY. The great-grans were cracked down on years ago, but not one has gave a sh1t, for the last 30 years, how many sex partners adult Mormons have. It’s about 14 yr olds getting raped.

IT”S NOT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE!

Lesson Learned after all the mormon mouth is thru running: Children in the USA have a civil right to a childhood free from rape.

Amy,

If I were you I would ignore Dave and others who spout the garbage that he does, he is simply baiting people on here. Anyone who has an ounce of brains knows full well that the FLDS church is not in any way connected to the LDS church as we know it today, except from a historical standpoint and that by the slimmest of threads.

What’s really going on here is a few corrupt men have perverted something that was meant to be good and wholesome at it’s core into something sick and despicable. Everything else is just BS. No one in his right mind would think it is OK to abuse young girls and anyone who does needs his or her head examined. At this point, we are all just beating a dead horse.

Having said that, this is my last post on the subject. My prayers, and yes I do pray, I do have a 15 year old daughter, and I am also Mormon, go out to those poor women and children who were abused or so afraid for their lives that they did nothing. Please be kind to each other and forgive those who have no compassion for others or no desire to learn about how other people believe or choose to live…

CandyCain: To say the least, I have a bit of a soft spot for those who still believe in its practice. This was the part of the comment I was virtually remarking on. This was not meant as a discussion for your soul, but for JCarps.

“to all of those ‘good mormons’…how is it that you continually turn a blind eye to these law-breakers within your borders??? I have yet to see the law of the land upheld in Utah. i guess it would be hard to turn your back on those that tithe to your organization. clean up your own community! ”

Although I live in Arizona, I seem to remember that it was Utah, yes Utah, which convicted Warren Jeffs. Nevertheless, I agree that it is always a good idea to clean up your own community. I’ll be honest though, I haven’t seen a polygamist in a long time. Look, they are such a small group and in order to come in contact with them, you have to live in special places. There really are not that many of them.

That said, if they need a place to stay until they get back on their feet, I suppose we could put them up, but I have no idea how that would work.

Rebekka Friedman: This is about souls, not grammar. don’t ya think so?

Carrie who was raised Amish – great comment. You definitely have insight.

JCarp – I understand and respect loyalty to family and faith, but please define – factually – the sources of the exposes you denounce and suspect.

lfti – it’s clear you love and are loyal to your church. A loyal heart is a good thing. But wanted to point out an historic fact to you: your reference to “gone to hell in a hand basket” should actually be “gone to hell in a handcart.” It was a common phrase in the mid-19th Century that referred to newly converted Europeans to the Mormon faith – new converts who journeyed to “Deseret” in the handcart companies. These converts, by the way, had heard rumors of polygamy but it was denied by the proselytizers. When they reached the Valley of the Great Salt Lake, however, and found out the truth, it was too late. It was impossible for them to get out of the desert on their own – not unlike the impossibility of flight for the women and children in the FLDS group, both in Colorado City and in Eldorado. Polygamy was as big a national issue in the 19th Century as slavery. Fed up with the practice, the Mormons were going to be driven into Mexico (and were prepared for it), but the Civil War interrupted the effort, the federal troops needed East. By the time the nation recovered from the war devastation, the LDS Church was too entrenched, as was the theocracy that Utah Territory was and continued to be even after statehood.

Cuervogold – I finally read all your entries. Impressive. However, verbosity isn’t the same thing as knowledge and intelligence. Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about regarding anything at all. You somehow feel a need to discredit me, but I suspect that the reason is because you fear I just might know something you don’t. You’d be correct. As I wrote earlier: don’t assume you know who I am or what I believe.

But to all of you expressing concern for these children in the FLDS church, no more innocent or helpless creatures exist. And right now, that IS the issue. There are approximately 60,000 polygamists in Utah (PBS special: Polygamy in the West) and there are more compounds like this one in Eldorado. Children, women and boys are being imprisoned and abused in the name of religion. Freedom of religion is a wonderful right we enjoy as citizens. But as many of you have pointed out, when it’s used – as it has been throughout history – for the purpose of oppression, control, and exploitation (which is my personal problem with the LDS Church and the root of what we’re dealing with in Texas), then is it really religion? Our country is young and some of these questions have not been fully answered. But I hope this will open the door to addressing them.

To: Concerned,

I never said I that I “condon having multiple sex partners and multiple children born to only one father”. I actually said just the opposite. While I do have a “soft spot” for the way my ancestors were treated and driven from their homes for having multiple, yet consenting, partners. The only thing they did illegal was to be living in the US in 1882 when the Edmunds Law was enacted. They by no means were raping children, forcing minors into early marriage, abandoning uneducated boys on the street (in order to keep the high female to male ratio), or even bilking the government out of taxpayers money. That is the real crime being perpetrated at this time. It was a very different story 150 years ago.

As a side note, my G.G.Grandfather lost almost $1,000,000 (not adjusted for inflation) in property when he was again driven from his home in Mexico in the early 1900’s. To say the least, he was able to provide for his large family “Proper clothing, a good education and healthy food, as well as healthy living conditions”.

Frankly I’m not sure what concerns me more. The travesty that has allegedly occured under the auspices of “religion” (any religion) or the bigoted, uninformed, hateful comments by some of the bloggers themselves. THE FLDS members are NOT Mormons so quit painting them with the same brush.

And for those of you who claim we are not Christians, well then you really don’t know anything at all about our religion.

To Rachel:

Hello….do you understand English? Are you literate? Do what math…..You are saying the same thing I did. It is not about religion and people need to stop confusing the issue. It is about an illegal act which involved sexual activity with minors. What is unclear about that issue in my last comment. No where in any of my “blog pstings” did I condone nor agree that it was understandable what was done by the FLDS church. It has nothing to do with their beliefs….Sexual assualt of minors for their own sick perversions is and always will be considered criminal in any court of this country. I never strayed from that belief. So read carefully what everyone here is saying before you go off like a loaded gun, Rachel, my dear girl! I too fear for those small girls that were brutally raped before they should have been exposed to such carnality.

I am not at all surprised –when you are a deceiver of God’s Truth–perversion follows, then the raping of children. God will not be mocked–He will expose those who deceive and blaspheme in His name. Jesus said in John 14:6
“I am THE way and THE truth and THE life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me.”

ANY other version of this truth is deception–and perversion will follow. You don’t need to argue with me–you can take this up with Jesus–He said it.

JCarp: These are your words: To say the least, I have a bit of a soft spot for those who still believe in its practice. Who still believe in its practice, you stated, as well as stating you were a product of polygamy. What were you trying to say you had a soft spot for?

To Mary Been There:

Get a life, girl. I have no hesitation matching my wits against what you like to think you have. I also do know that I know a lot more about Mormons than you do. I happen to have several members of my family that are members of the Mormon faith and have been for decades. That includes two of my own siblings who married Mormons and joined the church. I can honestly say that I just chose not to embrace it with them. More power to them if it answers their questions. I know they are better people since joining that faith. I do not have a jaded view of them because I am aware of the fact that what I see is far more proof than some junk an anti-Mormon may have concocted. Just because you happened to have lived near a splinter group of the Mormon Church does not mean that you are an expert on the Mormon faith (which that group purports to be but is so far removed it is not funny). They are not even similar if what I am hearing now about them is any indication. This group actually brags about milking the government for money while the Mormon Church does not take a dime but rather supports their own when needed. This group practices (since it started) sexual perversion and plural marriages and they promote physical abuse of wives and children to “control them”. The Mormon Church abhors that and denounces that (and has for over a century). So you get your facts straight. I do not know why you cannot get it through your thick head that this is not the Mormon Church.

Also, I cannot figure out why I am wasting my time participating in this senseless blog. Guess I had a lot of free time on my hands for the first time in a long time. I saw a good church and people being wrongly maligned and felt the need to speak out in their defense. Too many of you are nothing short of hate mongers who hide behind your churches to attack others all in the name of who? Christ? Get real. He would be as sickened as I am with those of you that are doing anything MORE THAN sharing your disdain for the group that should be blamed and that has done wrong…..the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (not LDS/Mormons…not even remotely close).

I am signing off…got much better things to do as I can see while a majority of you have your heads on straight and can see the forest for the trees, far too many have their blinders still on and can see nothing but their own short sighted views. I have not even shared mine and the reason why is that they have no bearing on this blog. I also hold my own personal religious beliefs as just that personal and will share them with whom and when I feel necessary. I did state that I am an agnostic that does believe there is a God. Suffice it to say, that is enough said. With that in mind….I wish you all a great discussion and may you all learn to do as a previous blogger stated…..learn to be more acceptable and loving toward one another rather than so quick to judge (of course, other than those sick FLDS perverts that are hiding behind their religion). Be good and God Bless!

Kim R: There are many confused people out there, that believe that their religion is the only true religion, but religion is only a way of expressing ones spirituality. If there is a God of true goodness, I do not believe he will address anything other then the soul itself. Blessed be all that have goodness as their guide!

Cuervogold: If you still there, someone whom doesn’t believe there is a God is an Athiest. An Agnostic is someone who neither believes or disbelieves. They simply reserve judgement on that issue.

Dear Concerned,

It is a very sad thing that people believe that they are good and that will get them into God’s Eternal Heaven. Sorry, but Romans 3:10 says:”There is no one righteous, not even one”
Ezekiel 33:13
If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

John 3
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

Deception Leads to Perversion: There is a difference between claiming to be perfect, and having a true desire, as well as the spirit to follow through in trying to do what a being believes is of true goodness. For those that do not have the drive to accomplish all their heart desires to do for the realm of goodness, just do the best you can with the spirit you have. Smile, say a kind word, offer a seat, whatever you can, its still in the contributing to a better existence.

Concerned:

Actually an agnostic is someone who is not arrogant enough to think they KNOW whether God exists or not. I did not say that I know God exists. I simply cannot deny the fact that there is a higher being involved in the big scheme of things every morning I wake up and see the miracles of life outside my doors. I marvel and admit that there is a possibility that there is a God but I have never stated that I know that he exists. Therein lies the difference between myself and an Athiest. The Athiest will deny he exists and you claim you know he exists. I believe He exists (or she or it). I think I know what I am and I am glad you felt “concerned” enough to inform me of what I am (just as you feel the need to inform the world that you happen to hold all the answers to their sorry pathetic beliefs if they do not match yours. No one is asking anyone here about their religious beliefs (if I am not mistaken) but many of you feel the need to correct people or direct them “your ways”. The issue is simple….did the FLDS break the law and sexually abuse those young girls or no. Simple. Do not cloud the issue with this convoluted spewing of your scriptural references that frankly have no bearing on what the blog should be directed to….the guilt and crime that appears to have taken place at this FLDS compound. I know I said I was signing off, but I had to reply to that one since it hit close to home!

Dear Concerned,

Your version is not in God’s Word. Only the blood of the Lamb cleanses you from all sin. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. All other ways are futile. He said so Himself.

Cuervogold, may I apologize and say that I think you actually are very intelligent? Hope so. Have a good evening. Mary B.T.

Cuervogold: I did state that I am an agnostic that does believe there is a God. This was stated under your blog name, the last paragraph, on the fifth line down. I am agnostic and I do believe in being kind toward humanity. Your words do not match what I have said. I was speaking to another being, and had enough care in my soul to try to bring comfort to an innocent whom happened to be mormon.

Deception Leads to Perversion: Goodness is Goodness, and evil is evil. I do not believe a God of true Goodness would be lawish, and send a person to hell because of something printed in an earthly version of what a God would do.

Dear Concerned,

Please do not argue with me–I didn’t write God’s Word. You can either accept it or reject it, but you can’t argue with it. I am not a gambler and I happen to believe in eternal life, God said it is so. Why would I think that God would accept my way? He won’t, nor will He accept yours. He will only accept the blood sacrifice of His perfect Son Jesus for sin. You can’t be good enough–that’s why God had to send a perfect sacrifice to pay for your sin that you couldn’t pay for. Why would you argue with a gift that God gave you freely?
“For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul”

Cuervogold : I came on this website to hopefully find a picture of the missing girl that was raped and had children by the man she was forced to marry. She has gone missing and they are not sure of whether she is still in the compound or not. I know of a group of people that could be of some comfort to her is she is still alive. They do something called Reiki. If you are curious about what this is, there are a couple of websites you can go to that I will leave you the online address for. They are as follows: http://www.Reiki.org and http://www.christianreiki.org

Cuervogold : She is the one who called in to the authorities to report the issue. I have looked on the foxnews website and cannot find her picture. Do you know of a place where I can find one of her?

Dear Concerned,

If you are seeking truth, God has already given it to us through His word. Please read the Bible for yourself. Please see the love that Jesus has for all of us–He even died for the men that raped those precious children. Josh Mc Dowell (first set out to disprove Jesus), and Chuck Smith–two excellent teachers. God will reveal truth to you if you truely seek Him. Good bye and may God Bless you

Deception Leads to Perversion : You are telling me I do not have the right to my opinion, and that only yours is correct because you site it out of a Bible. There are alot of different Bibles, and alot of different beings whom believe in them and try to follow them because they truely believe, but the fact is they truely believe, and a God of Goodness doesn’t say oh no, thats not the correct version, you will now go to hell. No, he looks upon the heart if he is of true Goodness. He might reserve the right to say this being has been bad, but has changed in the heart, therefore I will take this being as one of my own. But A God of Goodness does look upon the Heart.

Deception Leads to Perversion : Are you afraid to talk to me?

Dear Concerned,

I’m sorry that you still choose to argue with me. God is also a God of wrath. He placed his judgement of wrath from sin upon His only Son Jesus and Jesus paid for your sin–brutally. If you do not accept Jesus, you won’t be cleansed from your sin, and yes, you’ll go to hell. “The wages of sin is death”. God is good–he sent His Son to die in your place. Those who are in Christ Jesus are cleansed from all unrighteousness. The blood of Jesus covers us. Nothing but the blood of Jesus can save you.

Concerned: What Deception is trying to tell you is that there is only ONE Bible. While there are a number of excellent translations available, the Bible’s content has never changed. It is the true Word of God. Various religious bodies have added books, but they have done so at their peril. For the Bible, Holy Scripture, states in the last chapter of Revelations: “And I solemnly declare to everyone who reads this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God shall add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone subtracts any part of these prophecies, God shall take away his share in the Tree of Life, and in the Holy City [Heaven] just described.” May God bless you. Mary B.T.

Dear Concerned,
I’m leaving my office now and going home. Please look at Jesus, because of Him, I am changed. Once you see that there is a Savior, once you truly call out to Jesus and ask Him to forgive your sins and believe in Him, He will never leave you or forsake you. He is the One who will satisfy the missing piece in your life. He made the way for us to have a relationship with God, our heavenly Father.

Concerned:

I am not quite understanding what you are attempting to state here. You qoute me and then either are quoting something that has absolutely nothing to do with what I stated or you fell asleep and started to “correct” someone else. I can believe in a higher power and admit there is a possibility that one exists without actually stating I know one exists. I do not know and would never admit I know that there is a God. i can hope and believe all I want. That is what makes me Agnostic. I believe in Christ, too, just as I believe in teachings of Buddha, Allah, Confusion, Tao, and many other great prophets. I see Christ as a great teacher and prophet. He brought great insight and hope to man at a very crucial time. But at no point have I claimed that I worship any of them. Acknowledging that God might be there (believing He might be there) is not in anyway contrary to my agnostic claim. What do you think I gain by claiming I am agnostic? I have nothing to prove and that is why I did not feel the need to defend myself but here I go, just as all the rest of the other people who have their own presonal beliefs and faiths have felt compelled to do when crossed. How is this first productive? Insightful? or proving anything to anyone? Personal beliefs are called personal for a reason and no one has the right to try to define what is right for another human being (unless of course, they are violating an law of nature or the land). Mine do neither nor do the Mormons so back off. Stick to the actual blog. I am going to bed. I live on the East Coast and have only one more day off and spending it with someone that seems to feel the need to criticize and mock others beliefs is not my idea of a constructive day! Good night and stick to what you know!

Deception leads:

Thank you for speaking truth on this blog. That said, I would take it even further. I hope I don’t upset you, but God’s name was never Jahovah. The Semtic languages don’t even have an equivalent for the letter “J”. Thats right, He wasn’t named Jesus either. This is how the cults try to mislead. If we understood His name is YaHWeH (YHWH) and He came to earth as YaHushua (Yeshua). Yahshua literally translated means “Yah is Salvation”. He is not only our Mashiyach, He is the physical manifestation of God on Earth. He said ” If you have seen me (Yahshua) you have seen The Father (YaHWeH)…” The Father and I are ONE (not three). Deuteronomy in the Hebrew reads “Sh’ma Yisrael YHWH Elohenu YHWH ECHAD. In English “Hear oh Israel, The Lord, our God is ONE Lord. We errantly translate the word ECHAD as “ONE”. But Echad actually means “One in compound Unity”. God is ONE, but He manifests Himself as Abba, as Yahshua, and as the Ruach H’Kodesh. But still ONE God, not three. The Trinity is a pagan concept that made its way through Babylon ultimately ending up with the sun worshiping Romans who hijacked the faith of the Netzarim Talmidim (early believers and disciples of Yahshua).. By the council of Nicea, they had all but cleansed the faith of its Hebraic roots.

By the way, I love Josh McDowell and Chuck Smith. I also love Chuck Missler. I will see them all in the Malkut Elohim (Kingdom of God). But we have lost something so valuable when we adopted a pagan substitue for the faith. Christmas and Easter are blantaly pagan and do not honor YaHWeH. We must return to the faith as it was in the 1st century.

If Christians would do this, Messiah denying cults like the JWs and LDS would not be able to stand against the truth.

Shalom Uv’racha!

Concerned:

I know what Reiki is. I have a friend here in South Florida that is a high preistess and she wanted to perform it on me when I was ill. I thanked her and kindly told her no. She always showed up to work in a long royal burgandy silk caftan with all kinds of crystals hanging from her eyeglasses, clothing, necklaces earrings, wrists and even was seen twice wearing a large quartz crystal strapped to her forehead. She said the gems each had certain propertites that fended off certain emotions and bad vibes. I know her favorites were Amethyst and Quartz. One of them had something to do with Stress. Strange girl but full of love all the time. Whatever floated her boat, I say. Not my business what she chooses to devote her free time to. If it works for her, God Bless her.

But what that girl will need is some serious counselling and psychiatric sessions. She needs to be de-programmed from all that pollution they filled her brain with . I cannot imagine the guilt she must be feeling is she is aware of the raid. Of course, it also remains to be seen if she even exists.

No, I have yet to see a photo of her either. Nor do I think that is any more important than working with what they do have…..a plethora of minor children that are either pregnant or already mothers to other children. That is enough to prove the point! Good night!

Cuervogold : Do you know of where I can find a picture of that girl, I really would like to help her. : ^ )

On a side note…stop looking for photos of this girl. If she does exist they cannot print photos of her since she is a potential victim of a sex crime/rape and therefore cannot be shown to the media. Also, minors of any crime (victim or perpetrator) cannot be shown unless there are extenuating circumstances (which have not been revealed as yet).

Cuervogold: Reiki was not right for you, but that doesn’t mean it will not help this girl, and personally I think she can use all the help she can get. Reiki is a healing that can only do good, it does not harm, therefore it is not harmful to send her some. If you truely know about Reiki, then you know that if she does not wish it, she has only to not allow it, and it will not be given to her. It is a true blessing.

Cuervogold: Well I saw her picture on fox news a few days back, that is why I came to the fox news website.

I still believe in goodness,(I do not believe that I am going to hell- and that is mean to say to me) and my heart is sad for these girls. I truely wish I could help and would like to find a photo of the missing one.

THIS SITUATION IS ABOUT ABUSE–NOT A RELIGION.

What is happening in this situation is a man and men and their sexual, physical, psychological, and spiritual abuse of women in a closed community. This is essentially very well organized domestic abuse done under the guise of a religious belief system. What is notable about this situation is that the abuse is generational and not only are the women abused, boys are both victim and abuser, taught to perpetuate the abuse by conditioning during their childhood and puberty by teachings and their male role models. There are many types of cults, religious and non-religious, but they have many characteristics in common. It is my hope people will see this situation for what it is, ABUSE, and focus on the health and psychological needs of these people and discuss dogma and doctrine later.

I am the survivor of a religious group that abused women in the 1970’s. I developed PTSD after my experience. It took many years of therapy, medication, and my hard work to recover my self-identity and rebuild my life. But I did. From my perspective as a survivor of cultic-spiritual abuse–with a different religious doctrine I find it troubling that this situation has focused so much on FLDS and Mormon beliefs rather than the horrific abuse and damage done to these women and children who were removed or voluntarily left the compound.

Much research is now available and there are therapists and counselors trained to work with survivors of spiritual cultic abuse. What these people need most is to be able to develop a sense of self. They need access–and freedom of choice–to talk to counselors and survivors of polygamist sexual and spiritual abuse. These people are hurting, in shock. Many may already have Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders, or other psychiatric illnesses. Many will develop Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in the next weeks and months. Some will return, some will stay out and recover and rebuild their lives. Some will have poor outcomes. With the proper psychotherapy and counseling the vast majority of these women and children can recover, that, I feel, the most important aspect of the situation the community, state, and even our nation should focus on–we are a nation built the concepts of life and liberty, we need to help these women and children pursue happiness.

It will take specialized help, an overwhelming number of hours of physical care, psychological support, and acclimating and providing opportunities for these women to become educated and able to support themselves and their children. It is a tremendous challenge that must be met. It means giving hundreds of American citizens back their freedom. I treasure mine everyday. Yes I have scars, I cried for the women and children and am furious with the abusers. But arguing about belief systems will not help them recover. Can we and will we provide the resources needed to give each victim the opportunity to become survivors?

The county sherrif may have proceeded correctly in waiting to enter their compound until there was an “outcry” but to say law enforcement waited until there was evidence of laws being broken is an outright lie. Poligamy is a crime in this country and the fundimentalist faith practices it thoughout the west often times in plain view of anyone who pays attention. Travel to Utah or Colorado or Idaho or parts of Canada and is is easy to see. When will the Feds stop ignoring this fact and inforce th elaws of this country? To hell with the ACLU and their band of liberal lawyers. Put them in jail to for abetting a crime.

Concerned:

How could you have seen a photo of the girl on Fox a few days ago. The story broke just a few days ago and it was from an anonymous caller stating that she was in a terrible situation. To my knowledge (and it is not perfect knowledge…I could be wrong) but she never even gave her name. Just her age and what had been happening to her over a series of phone calls.

I agree with what Anna is saying. She is spot on that this is all about what is happening to these women, and children in that particular compound. Getting caught up in religious debate (which for some reason, I even felt the need to step in and defend the Mormons who are not in any way, shape or form involved in this matter or group) is in no way helping to move forward with this topic. Religion and politics are something that just are not fit topics except among friends who are willing to be open minded. It is called polemics and is something that should not be broached unless you want to upset people that do not want to hear what you might have to say. Something you hold near and dear could be construed as evil and misguided to another who is not willing to open their mind (not necesarily agreeing with you…. but giving you that latitude of “if you want to believe it, then fine…I RESPECT YOUR OPINION”….handle it like an adult!).

It is sad when you hear about all these cults and organizations that prey on those that are at low points in their life and looking for answers or even worse, the young and defenseless or mentally challenged. While we hate to hear about it, it is unfortunately something that happens all too often and is part of human nature for those inclined to control people to feel complete. It is pathetic when people behave that way but it is something that we, as fellow human beings need to have compassion about (for the victims) and be ever vigilant of those kings of things so we can intervene if we see it happening around us. It does not just happen in Utah, Arizona and Texas. It also happens in Idaho, Montana, California, Oregon, Washington and probably every other state. I lived in Charleston for two years and while there I learned of an Island (I believe it is called Young’s Island) where the standard of living is something similar to the Ozarks at its worst and there is known incest going on and nothing is done there to stop it either and they are not Mormon, FLDS, RLDS, Polygamists or anything like that. There are simply sick individuals in this world and to think that this kind of thing is something you can say only Catholic priests and the polygamists are guilty of….take a look in some of the “rooms” of AA. It would blow your mind how many people are abused by their brothers, their fathers, both or simply traded for drugs or alcohol. It happens every day and alot more than you could imagine. It is a sick part of humanity and has been going on for years.

Ann is right when she says that the best thing to do for people like this is to give them support emotionally, mentally and spiritually. But most of all they need some serious guidance from through psychiatric counselling. These poor girls and boys were abused by people they trusted and they know no different. They hate what is going on but they think it is what life is all about. They know no different. They need to be taught slowly that it is wrong and they are not to blame. They need to learn what a real family, real love and real life is like. They need to learn to trust in another human being again. That is not easy to do. It has nothing to do with religion….it is about sick, sadistic people preying on the weak and defenseless.

It seems that people are just determined to be bigoted and ill informed. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not practice polygamy and hasn’t for 117 years. These people are not in anyway associated with the LDS church. They do not go to the same church buildings, they do not have the same leaders, they do not pay tithing to same place, they do not have the same temples. The church publicly condemns practice of polygamy, and especially child abuse. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has absolutely no tie to any FLDS group, and Mormons do not like what these people are doing to perpetuate a horrible stereotype.

I’d like to know what happens next inside the ranch? How are the men coping with life without the women to take care of them. Clean for them, cook for them….now they are the only ones remaining in their own prison. How do they cope?

A great website to learn about what goes on in this ranch and to read stories of people that have snuck out or been thrown out is childbrides.org

Cynthia Stone:

“I’d like to know what happens next inside the ranch? How are the men coping with life without the women to take care of them. Clean for them, cook for them….now they are the only ones remaining in their own prison. How do they cope? ”

My thoughts exactly. I would love to be a fly on the wall in that household with all of the women and children gone. Of course, that is only if they are guilty.

You are absolutly right but you can’t persuade an unbeliever who is blind. We can only pray that their eyes will be opened as Saul/Paul’s were. As my 4 year old granson says “Saul was bad but then he saw the light and became good Paul”

To Concerned:

I have a “soft spot” for anyone who is persecuted for their religious beliefs. If they are guilty of a crime is another item all together and they should be punished for it to the fullest extent of the law.

You also implied how you believe it is wrong for them to have “multiple sex partners and multiple children born to only one father”. As I see it, there are many who do this today in our world, the difference is that most men who sleep around and father multiple children do it out of wedlock (legal or spiritual), and many also try to then skip out on their responsibility to the raise them. Do I agree with it? NO! All I was trying to state was that I believe that it is possible to have more then one wife and still be a loving, supportive husband and father. Jacob, the son of Isaac, did it and so did others in my past family history.

JCarp:

Do you believe that women can have more than one husband? Why not?

The trauma these children have suffered is all the product of man-made religions. It truly is sad.

FACTS:

The Price of Polygamy

From June 2002 through June 2003 the Arizona Attorney General’s office reports 8 million tax dollars in welfare services have gone to support polygamy.

During this year, 80% of Colorado City has received food stamps totaling 2.3 million dollars.

5 million dollars in free healthcare and an additional 660 thousand in tax dollars were funneled in to the community.

In total the residents of Colorado City, the entire community, only paid 72 thousand dollars combined in taxes.

Thanks for The Facts Donna. Although I must admit that I am not surprised. Many of these women to not work and in the U.S. it is illegal to “marry” multiple times. The women would be “single” moms, so the financial assistance and healthcare needs make sense–unfair as it is, but it makes sense.

Hello All:

Just a quick couple of questions: If these FLDS men are only legally married to one woman, meaning with a license and all the accoutrements pertaining thereto, how is what they are doing illegal? I looked up the definition of Polygamy in terms of it’s legal application and I could find nothing that said that living with multiple women was a crime. Does this fall under common law marriage and cohabitation in some way that is not clear to me? If so, then why would anyone, cohabiting with more than one woman as a pseudo spouse, risk falling under the jurisdiction of the laws of a state where cohabiting is either illegal or after a significant period of time be deemed a living arrangement defineable as a common law marriage?

If you respond to this, please save me the religious rhetoric and opinions on the virtues or lack thereof of polygamy, I am well aware of both, I simply want a clear answer on what makes all of this illegal.

Secondly, please leave out all the welfare and tax fraud information, I’ve seen enough just on this blog to fill a small book. Thanks!!!

Ana,

I believe that the best chance a child has for a successful, full life is with a (one) loving father and a (one) loving mother. But I also acknowledge that it is possible to do this with many other combinations of parents, grandparents, foster parents, single parents and such… it is just harder. So I personally believe that we should stack the deck in the children’s favor for their benefit.

So in answer to your question, yes. I guess it is possible for one woman to have two husbands (I’m not sure if the two husbands could though . Who am I to judge and force my personal morality on others. However, at this time, this and other non-traditional unions are not legal and those laws should be respected and followed, or changed.

JCarp:

You know in reality, the only ones who are really in a position to criticize polygyny as an institution are those who have only been with one woman their entire life. The minute a person has had an affair, has a second, third, fourth marriage, or any sexual relations outside the bounds of that one person you gave yourself and which you maintained your virginity for, that same minute he becomes unfit to wax self-righteous about the issue.

Like you, I will never justify any abuse for any reason, whether monogomous or polygynous, period. No chance, no way, no how. However, I do have to laugh when single parent households struggling to get by without a father and those who have gone through serial divorces and/or affairs with children from multiple partners from the same woman swell with righteous indignation when mention is made of Mormon polygyny. Divorce seems to anaesthetize the indiscretions of many in this world. In this society, as long as you discard the old when you pick up the new, you can be a “regular Joe”, “one of us”, not to mention that you can say that you “live in the real world”.

lfti:

In general terms, I don’t believe based on your definition that it is illegal to live with multiple women–and perhaps it is a matter of choice. It is particularly legal, in my opinion, if all involved are in agreement on the terms and conditions.

However, in this this situation, I think it is more of a case of “forced” relationships, where the “would-be” wife is not in agreement and certainly not of legal age, emotionally and legally, to enter into such a relationship (or contract). And how can anyone think, by any stretch of the imagination, that forcing a very young girl into a sexual relations (which is rape) is ethical.

Nevertheless, if a woman of legal age is comfortable and happy with the terms of a relationship in which she shall share a “husband/spouse” with others, then all the more power to her.

lfti,

I think that the state of Utah has been trying to figure out a way to prosecute these polygamist fathers for not paying child support. Since these “single” mom’s have been charging the state for the support of all their “fatherless” children, the state is now going after these fathers for “abandoning” their children. Looks like the knife might end up cutting both ways!

I get very upset when I read stories like this. I’d like to see the authorities get their birth certificates and DNA samples from every member. If any man fathered a child while the mother was under age, they he should be getting some serious jail time. Serious hard jail time for all of these “men.” Prosecute them to the full extent of the law.

It is not as if these men are real fathers anyway. Evidently, they require my tax paying welfare dollars to sustain themselves. Besides, there is not anyway that any of these “men” could be a real father to so many offspring. How can a child get the benefit of a father when he has so many siblings and half-siblings? There is no complete family here, this is far worse than a single mom family.

This reflects bad on real Mormons as other faithful have difficulty differentiating between LDS and renegade groups such as these. This also reflects bad on all religions and faiths in general as secular-progressives will use this example to demean religion in general.

Serious hardcore jail time for these guys. Enough already! Enough!!

Alex,

Thanks for your comments.

When you stated “the only ones who are really in a position to criticize polygyny as an institution are those who have only been with one woman their entire life.”… you described me to the “T”.

Ifti:

“If you respond to this, please save me the religious rhetoric and opinions on the virtues or lack thereof of polygamy, I am well aware of both, I simply want a clear answer on what makes all of this illegal. ”

This is where it gets interesting, because back in the day that the Federal Government enacted anti-polygamy laws in the late 1800s, they would prosecute Mormons for “unlawful cohabitation”. I believe it was the Edmunds-Tucker Act that made it so. My g-g-g grandfather was thrown in jail for unlawful cohabitation because he was caught trying to spend time with one of his wives and children. The law aimed to split up already existing families. The funny thing is, he would never have gone to jail if he had just let his wives and children flap in the wind on their own. If he had just abandoned them or divorce them, he would have been fine. However, caring for his family was his undoing.

Alex:

Please explain the purpose of Polygamy? I do not understand. As I see it, most of these men are unable to sustain multiple households–so it seems more recreational for the men involved than a commitment of “true love” to more than one woman.

I am not defending or persecuting the situation in any way, but I have a few

questions, I think people need to think about.
We have a group of people who are practicing their religious believes. Whether

we believe in them or not. Everybody claims that these women are held prisoner

in this religion, and that they are kept from the outside world, and having any

contact with our mainstream society. This is a very important point in this

whole debate.
The police stated that they knew of all kinds of rumors about life in the

compound. But had no proof or any reason to act upon such rumors.
All of a sudden, a 16-year-old girl gets access to a cell phone, not a land

line that can be easily traced to its location and who do she call not the

police to report being attacked and raped. But she calls social services. The

one group that can start a full-blown assault anywhere at any time, with little

justification. Now if this girl is raised in such a closed culture and how do

she know to call social services? Wouldn’t she call the sheriff or the police.

Somebody in, who is known in law enforcement to all.
I think it’s also peculiar that of all the women and children that were removed

from the compound. There seems to be no sign of this alleged victim.

I think it’s also of an interesting note that if all the men involved in this

organization. The one guy that she claims over the cell phone is the man

that’s been abusing her. Is a recently convicted sex offender. I think it

when sincere is just a little to the far stretch side.
Does anyone think that this is a little peculiar in a coincidence department or

the fact that gearing up the lead of the compound. Everyone seems to have

gotten caught except these two individuals.

The disgusting truth, that anybody with a $20 by here page your cell phone

could stand within a mile of the compound and make as many false calls as they

wanted to and pretend to be anybody they wanted to.

There are plenty of fanatics, of all kinds in this country who love to hide

their own personal agendas behind the phrase quote, the greater good.

I think before we all decide to get self-righteous. We should actually take

the time to figure out what the real facts are and not what is spoonfed us by

the media.

Let’s not have another Waco in which we get force-fed a bunch of propaganda,

only to get the truth. Two years later, when nobody really cares.

Gonzo:

You can’t use “religion” as justification to break laws. If that were the case, we’d be lawless very fast. These people are impregnating underage girls. Period. Anyone doing that needs to be incarcerated regardless of their “religion.”

Are you for or against statutory rape laws? Many of these girls are not of the legal age of consent. Many of these 16 year olds have multiple children. That is indefensible.

Its a way for old men & pedifiles to have what they want – WTF is the matter w/people today!!!! I have a 12 yr old daughter and couldn’t imagine what would be going through her mind as a 50 yr old MAN was having sex w/her all in the name of a religion???????? Keep your religion!!!! I wouldn’t worship ANY GOD that would suggest or condone something like this!!!! AGAIN WTF IS THE MATTER W/PEOPLE TODAY?????????????????????? As a mother of 3 daughters I am OUTRAGED!!!!!!!!!!!!

These people are criminal’s

and they should be prosecuted.

But, you want to know about polygamy?

well, first off, it is the most practiced form of marriage in the world, monogamy was an early Christian practice, and I say early Christian meaning after the coming of christ, before the coming of christ under the mosaic law, polygamy was acceptable.

Now, where does polygamy start in the mormon faith, it would have been in the mid 1800’s, after Joe Smith asked the lord, why polygamy was practiced in the old testament, but not in the modern day, what better way to teach somebody about something than have them practice it. Can you teach me about Love? Hate? Fear? Pride? can you teach anybody about anything without them experiencing it? It is difficult.

I would tend to believe that the mormons were commanded to practice Polygamy out of necessity as well as obedience, it was not a commandment that the average mormon wanted, even Joe Smith was against it, when it was first revealed to him, how easy could it be for a man that adores his wife, to bring in another woman with his wifes full knowledge into his house and bed? I cannot imagine it was anything they wanted. The necessity comes in when you factor in that mormons were being hunted, beaten, raped and killed by “christians” as a matter or fact, it was legal in the state of Missouri to shoot a mormon on sight until 1976, that reminds me of the romans throwing early christians to the lions. So with a lot of the men being killed and the women being widowed, I would think that polygamy would be a way for the women to be taken care of and the men to have large families.

This little sect down in texas, as well as all the other little splinter groups have nothing to do with the real mormon church.

The real mormon church discontinued polygamy in the 1890’s, many years after they first tried to get statehood, they were denied over and over again, and once polygamy was not needed the lord saw fit to release them from it.

I really do not care if ADULTS want to be polygamists. It is a stupid, disgusting institution, but it is not illegal to be stupid or disgusting. However, Polygamy is illegal and has been for a very long time.
The problem here is the children. Little girls being preyed upon by nasty pedophile men who just want to have sex with little girls. Dirty Men who want to control innocent children, mentally, physically and emotionally. Old men forcing themselves on young girls as soon as they start their period. These men are useless to society, they do not contribute. Millions of dollars are spent supporting the ‘fatherless’ children of these polygamist ‘families’. The women and children are kept uneducated. Women and children are punished by isolation and starvation.

And for all of you who say that it is uninformed to call these people Mormon….Well, yes, the MAINSTREAM Mormon church did ban polygamy a long time ago, however, they still believe that polygamy is a vital and eternal practise. (it is in their scriptures, The Doctrine and Covenants)
Not only that, but ‘by their fruits you shall know them’ and had it not been for Joseph Smith justifying his affair with Fanny Alger (and many many others)by calling it polygamy, then NONE of this would be happening. Joseph Smith, DIRTY FILTHY UNINSPIRED MAN #1.

“Please explain the purpose of Polygamy? I do not understand. As I see it, most of these men are unable to sustain multiple households–so it seems more recreational for the men involved than a commitment of “true love” to more than one woman. ”

I will give you my opinion, and it is only an opinion. I can’t speak for every reason and certainly not for FLDS reason (I don’t have the time or the space), but I can speak to some conditions at the time in the 1800s that existed with the LDS church. At the time, there were many women, and the men were stretched pretty thin with all that was going on. The church was small and did not have the critical mass of people to be able to maintain a stable base of the church at home, wherever that was. It looked like there was no peace to be had by staying in the east or the midwest (Yes, there were persecutions before polygyny ever showed up.), so it looked like the church would migrate west. However, if they were to survive in the west as a people, they would need to be very united and they would need to grow rapidly. Enter polygyny.

Not all practiced polygyny. In general, those who were living the standards, and had the financial wherewithal to support them could marry additional wives. For example, a GGGGrandfather of mine was educated and quite well off. He took additional wives. One interesting thing about polygyny is that it increases the parent to child ratio for each child, and allows women to work while allowing them to raise their children. The wives would support each other in raising their children. This arrangement allowed the women to develop themselves in ways they otherwise might not have been able. For example, some were sent to school to train them to be doctors and teachers.

In the end, polygamy ended up helping to create amazing unity, because everything is organized around the family. To survive, everyone needs to work together. It achieved a critical base of members who were committed to the restored Gospel and had demonstrated faithfulness in the midst of their difficulty.

Now about true love. The love that husbands had for their wives and the wives for their husband would be forged out of sacrifice, patience, kindness, faith and work. You love those you sacrifice for. The work comes first, then comes the reward. If husband and wife sacrifice and work for each other, I think you will find that they will have true love. The infatuation, or falling in love is spark, but the faithfulness and dedication is the enduring fire. (You probably already know that.)

In short, I think it was instituted for unity and numbers in a very critical time in the history of the LDS Church.

Shot, there were always more mormon men than women in polygamist Utah. Joseph was marrying other mens wives. The men were not absent or dead and the men were faithful members.
Perhaps you should study a little more. It’s all on the the LDS geneology Website, familyhistory.org

alicia wickham:I want to thanks Fox News for for letting us Americans no about the evil in this world.
what I like about you guys you don’t cover it up or forget about it. Now we have FLDS using religion to abused young women and girls.They are abunch of pervert’s getting together to harm women.
Were is the out cry from are churches of America?This is not a religion from a christian bible.What is differnce in what the catholic church did in there churches?We need to wake up America and start putting these pervertes away for good. We need to start voting for the right people.
May God forgive us for not helping them sooner.

Drovin, perhaps you could at least sound intelligent when you spew your hate, here is a challenge for you, you state that is is all on familyhistory.org. Ok, please be a champ and go to that site, find the family tree of joseph smith and post the link back here.

You can’t do it, because you are just spewing hate that others have sold to you, how much does it cost for an anti-mormon DVD or book? The mormons will give you their literature for free.

If you want to argue intelligently, please do so, just don’t lie…because that is what you have done, and your own words prove it…by their fruits ye shall know them….please go to familyhistory.org, the website you posted as proof of joe smith marrying other mens wives and get the proof, if you cannot do that, I will stand by my statement of calling you a liar.

The purpose of polygamy was to cover up Joseph Smith’s indiscretions. Fanny Alger was his first and she was a maid in his house. When Joseph’s wife found out she threw Fanny out of the house. Nothing good came of polygamy. We have seen it in the past and continue seeing it today.

Mormon Mom, just so you know, Joseph married girls as young as 14. Back in that time girls did not typically marry until 20 and didn’t start their period until they were around 16. They had families who were willing to take care of them so why was it necessary? These girls wrote journals about how they did not want to marry Joseph, but they had too. He was an abuser, he started the Mormon church, he started polygamy and you and all ‘13 million’ members of the current LDS church, if you know what you believe, believe polygamy is an eternal and righteous institution inspired by God. Apparently God was wholly uninspired or maybe and much more likely, Joseph was a fraud.

Drovin:

You are distorting facts to bash all Mormons. This is exactly what I meant when I first posted:

“This reflects bad on real Mormons as other faithful have difficulty differentiating between LDS and renegade groups such as these.”

Truth is, Mormons disavowed Polygamy in the 1890’s. Anyone associating with that practice has been excommunicated since then. You need to differentiate between renegade splinter groups and mainstream authentic Mormonism, else you’ll sound ignorant and bigoted.

As you can tell from my past posts, I don’t approve the actions of this FLDS group. But I’m not ignorant enough to slam all Mormons the same way notwithstanding any philosophical or religions differences. I certainly do afford the same distinction towards Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, and Jews. Religions would have far more credibility if they all would make that same distinction.

“Back in that time girls did not typically marry until 20 and didn’t start their period until they were around 16. ”

What if a girl started her period at 14 (yep, that does happen, you know)? Look, at that time, if a woman had domestic skills, the rudiments of education, and was physically mature enough, she could be considered independent enough to be adult and thus be married. That was what made you a woman. They didn’t have this arbitrary legalistic eligibility age criterion like we have today. She was a woman when, not she was a woman at age___.

It is less hate and more disappointment that drives me considering I was a member of the LDS church for 25 years. If you go to the site, it may not bring Joseph Smith up immediately however, just search his name with Emma Hale as his spouse. And Lucy Mack as his mother.
His is the first entry.
Click on Zina Diantha Huntington, she was married only 7 months to Henry Jacobs before she was taken by Joseph. Henry was devastated as his diary shows, but he remained a faithful follower of Joseph. There are others, but hers is the one I am most familiar with because of the extensive diaries and letters.

Shot, here is your link:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=ancestorsearchresults.asp

Alex, documents show that the girls were not interested in marrying Joseph. Joseph told them that the salvation of their family members depended on them marrying Joseph. That is manipulation at its finest. But you will continue to believe and I will continue to believe that he is a fraud. Fact is that had it not been for Joseph Smith, little girls would not be being abused in Texas, Utah and Arizona all in the name of a religion Joseph started. …..and by their fruits you shall know them…

And I did try and copy and paste the page, but it would not accept it. I am guesing because of the length or maybe copyright reasons, either way you obviously can type and can look it up with the link provided. And with only a couple of clicks of the mouse, it will be laid out in front of you in all of its morbid glory.

Lol, spewing hate….are Mormons still referring to fact that disproves what they believe as spewing hate? Being Mormon was funny.

It seems to me also that since polygamy does not appear to be going away any time soon, the several states should take steps to make it more difficult to engage in as a practice, to that end, I would like to submit a few ideas:

1) Require that all children regardless of race, age or religious belief be medically examined on at least an annual but better semi-annual basis, by a local Health Dept. Physician. If people balk at this idea, link it to something like tax time, no exam, no tax refund.

2) Require all school age children attend a mandatory age appropriate course (that would last from 4 to 12 weeks) on US citizenship.

3) Change the welfare laws to reduce money for welfare mothers who continue to have children in an unwed, non-working status, to discourage rewarding people for baby making in order to survive. (This may in some form already be in place, but Heck I don’t know)

4) Change zoning laws to make it unlawful to create the types of compounds like the YFZ ranch and the Branch Davidian variety.

It might not be much, but it’s a start…

Drovin,

I seriously doubt your claim here: “I was a member of the LDS church for 25 years.”

In fact, the Old Testament explicitly sanctions polygamy multiple times and the New Testament does not outright forbid the practice. The antagonism towards polygamy was not biblical in origin, for the bosom of Abraham, where most “Christians” long to repose, is a polygamous bosom, and the house of Israel, into which most “Christians” seek admission, is a polygamous house.

This is something all Christians have to reconcile.

Don’t you all find it a little more than ironic that the very information some people are using to make their arguments against Mormonism and Polygamy comes from an LDS site?

Frankly, I think it’s pretty funny.

Sadly though, I see that people are still choosing to make the main issue here one of religion, of casting blame. I say shame on all of you. It’s no wonder there is so much hate, anger and confusion in this world of ours, when so much of it is being spewed out on this one little blog.

It’s too bad we can’t focus our time, energy and talents on trying to find workable solutions for the folks who may have been harmed in all of this, but I guess some of you have nothing better to do than to point fingers, and wax self-righteous about your own beliefs. In the end what does it matter what you believed in or what someone else believed in? God gave all of us a conscience to know inherently the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. Obviously, many of us in this life choose to ignore those promptings and too, many of us are unable to discern just what those promptings are trying to tell us and we end up making mistakes, in this case horrible ones. Ultimately, I would hope that, regardless of what we collectively believe in, some pretty misguided and sick people not only broke the laws of this country, but caused a great deal of harm and anguish to those they were supposed to have loved. What they need is our capacity to help, if indeed help is what they both need and want, we can not and should not choose that for them. What I’m sure they don’t need and most likely would not want is for us to engage in a pointless exercise in casting stones at each other all in the name of God or all in the name of being more right with God. Frankly, whether you believe or don’t believe in God is not what is most important here, its your humanity and compassion that matters, your ability to have your heart go out to another because you see and can feel their pain. It happens time and time again we see it every day and if we didn’t have it, I would not give much for ability to exist as a species. It’s love for our fellow man. It happened at Homestead Air Force base in the wake of Hurricane Andrew, in New Orleans with Katrina, again with the events of 9/11 and with the earthquakes in California, this should be no different.

So, while you all can certainly engage in your war of words and beliefs, last time I checked it was still a free country, I hope you will tone down the attacks and the insults and focus on what’s really important here, helping those who can not help themselves…

Shot, cwpete, Alex:
Drovin knows what he’s talking about. I know you don’t want to hear it – all Mormons give rote denials about the facts of their church’s beginnings and its tenets.
Joseph Smith was described this way in “Female Life Among the Mormons” (ca 1859): “the first time I saw Joseph Smith I understood the meaning of animal magnetism.” Picture an Elvis or a David Copperfield – Smith was likened to a magician, as well. Smith liked women and devised an acceptable way to have them and built a power base by also giving them to men who were loyal to him. He was shot and killed by a posse led by the husband of a woman Smith had raped and abused. The Mormons were never “persecuted” for their beliefs, despite the generations of reenforcing this myth by church leaders. Rather, just as we are seeing in Texas, action was taken against them in response to their criminal and perverse behavior (translated: abductions, rape, theft, etc.) and when found out, they were chased out of several states. Have any of you never thought it was odd that the Mormons were the only religious body in the U.S. “persecuted for their belief?” Common sense would tell you otherwise.
Regarding the courageous exposes that were written, there was an action by the Mormon Church commonly referred to as “the burning of the books.” Faithful church members, always willing and eager to “protect” the church at all costs, went around the country and gathered up the exposes and burned them, hoping by so doing to hide and conceal their dark side and beginnings. Despite this massive effort, copies did survive and with a little digging can still be found. Again, common sense dictates that if a church is honest, pure and true, including its origins in their entirety, why can’t it be examined upside down and inside out? What was the church trying to hide by burning the books? What’s it still trying to hide by distancing itself from the FLDS in Eldorado, Texas? That group’s beginnings are part of the United Order of the Mormon Church in its early years. When the church began to change doctrines – which amazingly paralled actions by the U.S. Government – the group in Southern Utah refused – clinging to the belief that “God’s law was higher than man’s”, they were faithful to the original tenets.
Around 1990-1991, in the St. George, Utah Spectrum, there was an article about Mormon (LDS)church elders, members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and at least one Stake President who were involved in ritualistic child abuse and infanticide. I have a clipped copy of that article taken from the newspaper. The CBS affiliate out of Salt Lake covered the story on the morning news. By noon, there was a bare mention. By the evening newscast, nothing was reported at all. That is the silencing power of the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, based in Salt Lake City, Utah.
And as far as the relevancy of all this? All aside from the horrific treatment of innocent and helpless women and children, this FLDS church in Colorado City, Utah/Eldorado, Texas has thrived for generations in the name of religion here in the United States. It has been supported by American taxpayers through Aid to Dependant Children, by federal grants and by being awarded federal contracts (who can bid lower than mind-controlled commune members? [Equal Opportunity, folks!]. American taxpayers who work hard, and are playing by the rules of law and taxation, are paying for crime and perverse behavior in the protected name of religion. And no matter what that religion is, it’s time for it to end. Meanwhile, how thankful we can all be that a whole lot of women and children have just been rescued. Good for Texas.

P.S. I meant to add “or some higher being or calling” in my line about us all having a conscience or soul. My apologies to all atheists and agnostics…

Drovin:

Layoff topics you haven’t fully researched. FYI….Joseph Smith died long before the Mormons made it to Utah. Brigham Young was the leader on that fateful trip out west. cwpete and Alex are correct when they say that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. He had 14 wives in all. And his wife had to approve everyone of them (as did all of his other wives as a new one was brought on board). It is not my place (nor yours), as an outsider (non-Mormon) to cast judgement on the beliefs and history of another church. I find it irreprehensible that you would say such brazen statements about their founder and prophet. What does that gain? That would be like me saying that about your church leader when I really do not know what it is like to be Mormon or your faith. It is sad that you can hate something that is really not impacting you. Mormons, not FLDS, are good, God fearing citizens just like the Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Amish and Baptists. Just because you do not choose to follow their beliefs does not give you the right to judge them or their church. If it is not for you, then fine, drop it…don’t be like a gay basher, or a jew hater or a anti muslim, etc. It only serves to show your bad side. Just stop and think before you type things. Most of what you have written is good. don’t lose your tempo by adding hate filled comments like Joseph Smith was a fraud or Dirty Filthy Uninspired Man #1! Come on….how stupid does that sound in hindsight?

Now what is going on here….that is different. It is not the same so do not confuse the issue. These are sick, perverted men that are preying on young minds and bodies. Cut and dried. Religion has nothing to do with it. Stick to this….You too, Alex and cwPete…and you might fare better in getting people to agree with you. It is about victims at this compound, not whether Joseph Smith was a true mouthpiece of God or if the Pope is or any other religious leader!

Dorvin You can spread your hatred of Joseph Smith if you like, but please do not lump what these people in Texas are doing to the people of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. What the FLDS people are doing in their marriages is not in anyway shape or form is practiced by the 13 million members of the LDS church. They are not affiliated. They are two completely different churches. They have nothing whatever to do with each other. Please stick to the story instead of bashing Mormons.

Ifti and Drovin,

You are both bigots, and filled with lies, the sad thing is you actually believe the lies you are retelling.

I am ashamed that you call yourselves americans, I am ashamed I have defended you in combat, I am ashamed that people such such as yourselves will not stop spreading lies.

These people in texas are not mormons, they are sick, but if it had been between consenting adults, I would have no problems, but it involved kids

America is based upon religious freedom and to see you attack a good faith is sickening, this group in texas has nothing to do with real mormons and it is so sad that you feel it necessary to attack millions of good people over what a few hundred did

Hanging is too good for these manical perverts. I can not even begin to imagine the horrors these poor children have been exposed to. If ever they get a decent life God knows they deserve it and I hope every Christian organization in America will step up to help them achieve that.
There are evil people on this earth who will use any means to satisfy their perverse pleasures. That isn’t going to change but we all know in our hearts we are our brothers keepers and should a child be used as a sex object or enslaved it is everyone’s place to step in and save her. Shame on those who knew and did nothing…There should be protesters, picketers and a cry of outrage that children of this great country, young American citizens, have been subjected to this torture for YEARS!!!
And personally, I feel that the mothers who knew better yet allowed these apes to rape their daughters and beat them should be held accountable as well…I care less how many, who, what or how you have sex as a consenting adult, truth is I really wouldn’t want to know the sordid details, but when you bring a child in to rape, beat and impregnate…that is sick and IT WOULD BE OVER MY DEAD BODY!!! Where are the materal instincts to protect their children, most women in America would KILL a man to protect her daughter. This goes against nature and the whole thing is an abomination of the worse kind.

To all of those who keep attempting to use the D&C to bash Mormons, you might try reading it for yourself. Your “interpretations” are way off base (Dronin). No one is disputing that Joseph SMith practiced polygyny, (but I do challenge your assertion that he had affairs or marriages not approved by Emma (these people are my ancestors, too, and I am very familiar with their journals!) Nor is anyone (to my knowledge) disputing the fact that many “wives and concubines” is described in the D&C and throughout the Old Testament. What I – and I believe others – are saying is that you can’t look at one “fundamentalist” group who claims to be committing crimes because of religious beliefs and then project those distorted beliefs onto others who share commonalities with the basic tennets of that religion. Not all (not ANY in the case of the actually LDS church) Mormon men are Warren Jeffs, just as not all Muslim men are Osama bin Laden, and not all Protestant Christian men are “Reverend” Wright. It is wrong to bash a religion and all of its believers because a few REALLY BAD apples chose to hijack the religion and distort its teachings to fit their own sick agendas.

What we should be talking about is what should happen to these poor kids in Texas. I’m of course worried for the girls, and I’m glad Texas got them out of there (but I do worry about the legal impact of the way in which they did it – a really good lawer might be able to get some of the evidence thrown out), but I’m also concerned for the boys. What happens to the teenage boys? They’ve been programmed to believe this “Men rule iwth an iron fist” crap since they were born. How do they ever grow into adulthood and have a healthy relationship of their own? What kind of fathers witll they be? It’s clear that none of these children have had a positive male role model. Are they going to be distrustful of all men for the rest of their lives? I would think that Texas – if they end up taking permanent custody of the kids – would be looking for stable, (socially) conservative, two-parent, traditional families to care for these kids, but I don’t know if that would even help. Any thoughts from any cult survivors out there?

FYI – sorry for the typos in that last post. I just had PRK surgery (yay!), and at this point, I still can’t see my computer screen that well (so I don’t know when I make a mistake).

shot, hey, sweetheart, I don’t need you to defend me in combat, but thanks for serving me anyway~

Perhaps English Comprehension was a bad subject for you, but clearly I said that the FLDS and the LDS church are different, however, they were, at one time, the same religion, BOTH practicing polygamy. One brached off to continue the be ‘true to the faith’ and continued polygamy and the other became mainstream Mormonism.

There were always more men in mormonism than women. Joseph obviously wasn’t in Utah practicing it but he was prior to and in Nauvoo, and after his death the institution was continued and expanded by Brigham Young in Utah. When I originally posted, I didn’t think I needed to do an entire History lesson, but the link I provided from the familysearch.org shows everyone that yes, Joseph was sowing his wild oats with many, many, many women prior to his death and prior to the exodus to Utah.

Anyway, yes, I was mormon. I was born in the church. Did seminary and went to the temple and all that crap. So, yes, I do know a little about the lds faith. Apparently a little bit more than all of you who are still blindly following your ‘Prophet’.

This is really sad to see that the Texas Police Department inspite of knowing all these things for the last 4 years kept mum & let it happen to all these kids & women.
Though I’m surprised, why the news channels are using the term ‘Temple’ instead of ‘Polygamist Church’. Is there any explanation?

Mary:

I’ll answer a few of your outlandish statements. First, I’d like to give you an award for writing by far the most whoppers in any post that I’ve read in one single post.

First, I seriously doubt that the term “animal magnetism” existed in 1859 as you stated it applied to Joseph Smith. Well, I’m certain that the LORD Jesus Christ himself was a very strong and dynamic leader also.

Second, you state amazingly that: “The Mormons were never “persecuted” for their beliefs, despite the generations of reenforcing this myth by church leaders.” Your statement that Mormons were never persecuted is devoid of all history and fact.

Please make the distinction between the LDS church and renegade splinter groups. The LDS church does not condone polygamous behavior in any way. Any LDS members who enters that practice, or who has an affair for that matter, are promptly excommunicated. That is the way it should be.

Drovin,

You point out that Mormons “once practice polygamy” as reason for your abhorrence towards them. The same is true for all faiths. As I stated before – The bosom of Abraham, where most “Christians” long to repose, is a polygamous bosom, and the house of Israel, into which most “Christians” seek admission, is a polygamous house.

This is something all Christians have to reconcile, myself included. Let’s be objective please and stick to historical facts..

Well this has been fun. Shot, stop being so angry, it is bad for your blood pressure.
It is so easy to rile people up. lol.
But seriously, these children need help and I hope they get the therapy and physical support they need.
I am glad the authorities are finally taking action. It has been a long time coming.

cwpete, I never said polygamy was the reason I was no longer Mormon. Nice assumption though. Of all the reasons I chose to resign from the LDS church, polygamy is hardly a major reason.

To make you even more confused, I don’t even hate Mormonism…I still have a great amount of respect for my parents and my sister who are still Mormon. I love them and hope they get a great amount of happiness from their chosen religion. I personally don’t care for the religion and so I choose to not be a part of it. Best wishes for continued happiness…

Religion is not the issue here altho using it as a means to crimes committed is an issue. My brother is Mormon but certainly not a member of a church that follows the tenets of the fundamentalist sects. Our ongoing argument has for years been that I can not believe in Smith..thus.. I remain Baptist. This I will say, the church he attends is highly respectable and the Elders would view this situation with the same outrage most of us feel. The Mormons have accomplished many great things and this offshoot is a good example of the injustices that besiege them regardless of how much they do. People tend to believe all apples are sweet when in reality some are sour, but the sweet apple is still sweet, even if you happen to come across a sour one. Yet they fall from the same tree and we mustn’t be misled to believe that all apples are sour.

Drovin,

spewing hate your qoute

“Joseph Smith, DIRTY FILTHY UNINSPIRED MAN #1″

spewing lies:

“Zina Diantha Huntington, she was married only 7 months to Henry Jacobs before she was taken by Joseph. Henry was devastated as his diary shows”

True this was a plural marriage, and she was Henry Jacobs wife, but I am unaware of any diary by him, I only know of his attendance at the ceremony.

And Drovin, only call me sweetheart if you mean it.

eve

excellent post

Hey….FLDS is not a splinter group that formed while the Mormons were still practicing polygamy nor when they stopped. They stopped in 1890 and the FLDS church was formed in 1930. Get the facts straight at least Drovin. You claim to have been Mormon so that should be something you were taught. I think you are confusing the FLDS with the RLDS. The RLDS was formed after the death of Joseph Smith and it was lead by his eldest son, Joseph Smith III. He despised polygamy and while he never admitted he knew of his father’s polygamy, he said it was possible. But he and the RLDS always disavowed it. As did the Mormons after 1890. So lets not confuse that issue.

Eve:

There you go offering them apples again….making all us people hungry for sweet apples. But you are right. Thanks for saying it so well. Like you…while I have not ever embraced the Mormon faith, I have had siblings do so and the change in them was so much more for the positive. At first I was afraid that they would become “children of the corn” or something but it was not that way. I have even gone to their passing of the sacrament meeting before. Very pleasant. Just find it hard to sit through the full three hours they dedicate each Sunday. Like the Catholics with some of their three hour masses, I am impressed wiht that kind of dedications.

No need to bash Mormons just because you do not agree with them.

If these women and children end up leaving the compound, does anyone know if they will they end up going to foster care? Would they need to stay in Texas, or could they be fostered elsewhere? Anybody?

Shot and Cuevogold, thank you for understanding what I was trying to say. The Mormons have been good to my family in times of great need, even tho we are not all of the faith. Yes I do believe in the good works they do..it would take an incredibly cold hearted person not to. They are truly dedicated and happy in their faith.
This sect has to be taken as a group of individuals who broke the laws and tried to use religion as their excuse. Those children have to be the first concern.

ps..and you are so right about those long long hours

I think it interesting how calculating this group is. The women and children are taught that the outside world is evil and bad and that it is to be distrusted. However, they don’t seem to have a problem leaving their wonderful compound when it comes time to pay a visit to the Department of Health & Human Services in order to get welfare and food stamps at the “beast’s” expense. That’s a real religion there; a religion of rape, violence, greed, and power. Their own “god” seems to be Beelzebub.

Now, they’re crying “religious persecution”. I hope that no one falls for their lies and smoke and mirrors. These are bonafied pedophiles and criminals who know exactly what they are doing, hiding behind the door of religious freedom. I hope that the state of Texas prosecutes the offenders under the full measure of law that the state permits. Thank you, Texas.

This has nothing to do with religion. The perpetrators would LOVE for all of us to believe that this has to do something with religion. What this has to do with is CRIMINALS who commit heinous acts against humanity under the ruse of religion.

To all of you bloggers who are trying to hard to distance LDS from the FLDS, the rest of us non-mormons don’t give a hoot. The only thing that we see is statutory rape, violence against women and children, and fraud and extortion of our public resources like welfare and food stamps. These are prosecutable offenses which should land these leaders/prophets in the slammer where they belong. Then, may they have many years of “spiritual marriages” with prison bubbas. Maybe they will finally get to experience what they’ve perpetrated among the helpless and innocent for years. What comes around goes around.

Donna
*claps* Amen sister!

Thank you, Eve.

“To all of you bloggers who are trying to hard to distance LDS from the FLDS, the rest of us non-mormons don’t give a hoot. The only thing that we see is statutory rape, violence against women and children, and fraud and extortion of our public resources like welfare and food stamps. ”

Me too, Donna. Unfortunately, not everyone on this blog is satisfied with focusing on the relevent information, but are instead intent on smearing unrelated parties by association. I’m sorry you were in the middle of it. Anyway, assuming this case is prosecuted and they are found guilty of all these crimes, I hope they make these bums rot on jail. It would be sweet justice for them to receive from their prison daddy what they have dished out to their families.

To Mary Been There:

Sorry Mary, but it is obvious to me that you know nothing about history. Especially, where the LDS Church is concerned. Otherwise, you wouldn’t sound so ignorant.

Let me enlighten you! (Might I suggest that you read documents from the archives of the Missiouri and Illinois State Governments. You might also find it interesting that both the Missiouri and Illinois Governments have formally apologized to the LDS Church.) Joseph Smith first enquired about polygamy in the bible in 1831. This question came about as a result of studying about Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, David, and others who practiced polygamy. His question was how can these prophets and men of God have more than one wife. The principle of Plural Marriage was revealed. However, it would take years for Joseph to agree to practice this commandment of the Lord. His relationship with Fanny in 1835 came about because of this commandment. Polygamy wasn’t introduced to even the 12 apostles until the 1840’s in Nauvoo, Illinois. The persecution that exsited in Missiouri had more to do with political motivation and jealousy and greed on the part of local religious leaders. Remember that Missiouri wanted to be a slave state and the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were mostly abolitionisits. Also, members of the church tended to vote in blocks and this was detestible to the old settlers who wanted to maintain political power. The saints were not without fault, however nothing they did justified the murder, rape, and destruction that the people of Missiouri perpetrated on the Mormons. Anyone who disputes this fact is completely ignorant of history.

As for your claims that members “burned courageous exposes”, this is just plain ignorance. There was a man named John Cook Bennett who for a time lived in Nauvoo and became the friend of Joseph Smith. Mr. Bennett lied about having a wife and children in another state and passed himself off as a doctor. He was caught having affairs and abusing women and was promptly chastised by Joseph and the leadership of the Church (History of the Church Period I Vol. 5 p.13-19 by BH Roberts). This man cried, confessed and pleaded like a baby to not be exposed by the prophet and in turn he would leave the city. After a time, he decided that for money, he would write an “expose” on the church. It is called “The History of the Saints, or an Exposure of Joseph Smith and Mormonism”. It was poorly written and didn’t sell very well. It was obvious that the book was published out of spite for what happened in Nauvoo.

Joseph Smith was murdered in cold blood while being held captive in Carthage Jail. He was brutally murdered by a mob of men made up of fellow masons, ministers, and guards who were supposed to protect him. The charges against him were a total farse. He was murdered for political (note he was a presidential candidate gaining in popularity), economical, and because of his religious convictions (religious bigotry). It is ironic that the reasons that he was killed over 164 years ago this June still exist in America today.

Let me state emphatically that the LDS Church has nothing to do with the FLDS Church. They are not even a splinter group. None of the members of this church were ever members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and if some were, they have been excommunicated. Any comparison between the two is crazy. That is like saying that Lutherns, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. are somehow responsible for some Catholic Priests abusing children because they are “splinter” groups from the Catholic Church. Please use logic people!

Alex, I have wondered this too… I cannot imagine there being enough foster families in Texas to care for all of these kids, not to mention homes for the women who left. I wonder what they are going to do, and how they are going to organize it. Hopefully we can have a huge outreach from Americans all over the country who will provide shelter, clothes and funds for everyone who wants and needs help. I am definitely willing to give any of those things to help these women and their children.

Mormon Mom, those people are my ancestors too.

Shot, I am sure you are a sweetheart underneath that seemingly quick temper. No matter how many times you tell me I am full of hate, you won’t change my mind. I just love ya too much.

Thank you Serenity for clarifying the history for us. I know that the beginning of Mormon faith has never been ‘hidden’ when I have spoken with Mormons, in fact has any of us tried to ‘hide’ the old testament?

Well I hope to see some organizations step up to help these women and children, it boggles the mind to think of how they will adjust but I am hoping it will be the light at the end of the tunnel for them. A new life full of promise and hope. I know I just feel like crying it is all so heartrending. Those sweet little girls in their pilgrim clothes just touches my heart.

Thank you Eve!

I didn’t mean to write a novel, but I just get tired of people trying to compare my faith with the faith of the FLDS. And, using this tragedy as a way to bash Mormons rather than focusing on the issues at hand. In fact, the idea that sick people who would abuse children in the name of religion even have some of the same initials as my church is extremely offensive to me.

I just hope and pray that the people of Texas and all of us who witness this tragedy can help these poor people overcome the terrible abuse that they have gone through.

Drovin:

“I cannot imagine there being enough foster families in Texas to care for all of these kids, not to mention homes for the women who left. I wonder what they are going to do, and how they are going to organize it. Hopefully we can have a huge outreach from Americans all over the country who will provide shelter, clothes and funds for everyone who wants and needs help. I am definitely willing to give any of those things to help these women and their children. ”

Me too. It seems like they would have to remain in Texas under foster care during ongoing legal proceedings though. This might present problems with the availability of certified foster care. The only way I could see them getting farmed out to other states is if the court ordered a change in venue on the grounds that the workload is too high for the State of Texas.

When you apply and receive welfare benefits you sign over the right to support your children. You give that right to the government. If you read the fine print of the application…they make you sign that. It’s like that in Massachusetts…not sure about Texas.

The Feds might be able to do something with those documents if those women signed those applications…

To Jason,

If you would kindly scroll down a little and read my comments, you will find that your comments are completely based on ignorance and bigotry. Have you read any of LDS Church history. The LDS Church does nothing to “cover up” the early church. In fact, you will be pleased to know that over 20 volumes will soon be published of Joseph Smith’s journals. The History of the Church by BH Roberts is a very candid history of the church and doesn’t attempt to “cover up anything”. Please do not use offensive incendiary language when this story has nothing whatsoever to do with Mormons.

I respect you and I would hope that you would respect me and afford me the same courtesy without using libel and heresay rather than fact.

“do LDS kids play with non-LDS kids”

Yes. Mine do all the time. I even had many more non-LDS friends as a LDS kid then I did LDS friends. Your true-collors are showing…

Lets stick with the subject please.

I wonder if there is any way that the states they lived in before being “farmed out” could also assist in their welfare. I bet that most of these young children “brides” would very much like to get as far away as they can from the YFZ Ranch and those twisted men who ran the place.

Serenity, you are very intelligent but, clearly, your history lesson was taught – and very well – by your church. Which makes the account suspect.

And Eve, do you know what a pilgrim is? Pilgrims were the English settlers who founded Plymouth colony in 1620. The “sweet little girls” are not dressed like pilgrims, but rather in prairie or western frontier dresses. They loosely resemble the practical attire of 19th Century pioneer women.

Aside from declaring that I “don’t know what I’m talking about” and calling me derogatory names, would anyone have the courage to seriously address any of the very provable facts I’ve stated? But I guess not. A flat denial is what you’ve been taught. And you’re not like the FLDS church? As someone commented: “get real”

… modern LDS being deceptive:

You are wrong about the J. Smith journals: The LDS church has denied access to the journals for decades to all independent researchers. Read some of the stuff from the Tanners. The LDS church is far and away the most secretive church in USA.

The LDS church only admitted blacks in 1978 ! And that fact is conveniently left out by the church in its official documents.

“Active deception”: look at Wikipedia, and look at the LDS articles there: there is a team of 20 LDS Wikipedia editors scrubbing all the articles removing any negative facet of J. Smith or B. Young’s life. Im sure that is one of their “callings”.

Here’s a website that might help clarify the polygamy in the old testament http://www.eadshome.com/polygamy.htm . God was not okay with polygamy…anyone who understands the bible can clearly see that. Joseph smith on the other hand interpreted things in his own way which has brought to us the LDS faith. Those of you who call yourselves Mormons need to research the truth on your own. Just because you’ve always been told it’s true does not make it so.

That young woman who was on Fox News is NOT the one who called the authorities. She left the sect years ago and has adjusted nicely to the outside world. They have yet to find the one who called, therefore there are NO pictures of her.

To Mary been there

The “Church” didn’t “teach” me this, I researched this all on my own by reading countless books by both Mormons and Non-mormons. When I decided to be a part of a church or group or anything, I believe in research and by-the-way, contrary to popular belief, the church encourages it. Read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling.

To Jason

Let me get you the link. The Joseph Smith Journals will be published entirely and sold to the public imagine that!

“Church Launches Joseph Smith Papers Project

Journals, letters, legal affidavits and business papers documenting the life of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, will be published in a comprehensive series of 25 to 30 volumes entitled The Joseph Smith Papers. Built on the lifelong research of Joseph Smith scholar Dean Jessee, the Papers will be the first complete edition of all available documents produced by Joseph Smith himself or by others he appointed as scribes.” via http://www.lds.org

If you go to http://www.byu.edu and type in Joseph Smith Papers Project you can check on the progress.

Mary,
There is a huge difference between the LDS and this sect that uses their name and says they are ‘fundamentalists” like the ‘fundamental’ Islams (without their permission, and personally I think they should sue them for damages) They use young girls for sex and have multiple wives. I think they said on Fox there are 5 men involved in this.
We all know that once there was multiple wives in the history of the Christian faith based on the Old Testament. It was needed then. It is a thing of the past and not something our religions are based off of. The Mormons have a similar past too but do not live that way, teach that way, or believe that way. I must say it does not harm my views of Abraham in the least, so I can understand it.
My point is that the Elders are just as outraged as the rest of us, probably more so because of the backlash on to the true Mormons from this.
Whatever the dresses are called…those girls are sweet..

They have sects in Mexico and Canada where they swap girls so they might have sent the girl that called off to one of those.

… J. Smith papers published by LDS church:

I dont think you understand. The LDS church has routinely deleted and changed text in its historical documents. The Tanners have published hundreds of changes that the LDS church made to its Covenants etc …. all the edits were to hide embarrassing past practices.

The J. Smith journals, when published, will be heavily sanitized.

The most recent, and blatant, historical change by the church is the change to the Book of Mormon: in 1981 the church changed the wording from “white and delightsome” to “pure and delightsome” (2 Nephi 30:6). Why? to hide past racism.

Whoever heard of a church changing sacred text, when it was originally written in English. Oh yeah, the LDS church.

To Jason:

If by the “Tanners” you are referring to the couple that left the LDS Church and enjoys making money off of twisting truths then yeah, I’ve heard of them. So what? Just cause they’re bitter and have some kind of axe to grind doesn’t make everything they say accurate. I’ve heard all their comments and they don’t really jive with reality. As far as changing the wording, so what? It wasn’t to “hide” racism. We live in a world where words are constantly changing in meaning. Look at the editions of the bible that were changed into modern language rather than king James, does that make them any less true. If the Church chose to change the word “white” to “pure” to better explain the real meaning, I have no problem with that. As Jesus would say remove the beam out of your own eye before trying to cast the mote out of mine.

As for the papers, they are the actual papers. No whitewashing here. There is nothing to hide. I love all these conspiracy theorists who think that there is some great secret that the church is trying to hide. Ask me anything, I’ll do my best to answer. Give it your best shot. I’m by no means an expert, but please don’t insult my intelligence by quoting some ex-member rather than getting your facts from someone who is a sincere believer and knows her faith.

Judging Mormons by the actions of the FLDS cult is like judging Baptists by the Jonestown cool-aid drinkers or judging 7th Day Adventists by the Waco Branch Davidians. Noone can control nut jobs. Comments by hateful anti-Mormon bigots are only a reflection of small minded souls.

Eve, you’re very kind in your comments, but I can’t change my position – there is too much I know about both the LDS and the fringe FLDS churches. I will say this: whatever historic connection the two churches had, the FLDS church has spiraled down into the purest level of evil. I have been around the FLDS children and, as I wrote earlier, no more innocent or helpless creatures exist. They are angels – both the boys and girls. Truly, they are not of this world which makes the assaults on them – and subsequent captivity – all the worse. The adult women? Please understand that they have also been brutalized, isolated, and brainwashed. From infancy, they have been taught that black is white and wrong is right. How could you accept that the shock of rape and brutal beatings could possibly have anything to do with the well-being of your soul? Yet you are told that you must. Many of the FLDS women I’ve seen are still walking, hearts still beating, but they died long ago.

Jason, no one wants to hear what you or I are trying to say. But in support of your last entry, there have been over 4,000 changes – not translations, but CHANGES – in the so-called “sacred” writings of the English language Book of Mormon. This is a fact. The Mormon church is the master of doublespeak, coverup, alter, hide, conceal, and lie. The one example you gave of Wikepidia alone should give an indication of how widespread, historic, thorough, and effective this practice has been.

I am amazed at the hypocrisy of some people, repeatedly, I read comments geared at welfare fraud, and the crying of the little underage pregnant girl’s.
Yet by the same token, it seems to be a great social crime to apply the same standards to our multi-generation welfare breeders living all over the country sponging money off the taxpayers. So they can party and have a good time.
or that one can go through any illegal immigrant neighborhood such as I live in and on any given day walking around in the park. You can see up to a dozen or more underage girls pregnant, and usually pushing baby carriages.

It never ceases to amaze me. At the psychotic double standard applied in this country, to enforce whatever lame brain, politically correct agenda is popular at the hour.

In years past, we’ve had these situations before, and I can’t wait for the standard game plan. All these women will be threatened with the adoption of their kids in the social services, unless they decide to testify against the evil men who persecuted and manipulated them.
Maybe the government should pull a paramilitary raid on social services, then we can find some real criminal despots and deviants.
How can anyone have any kind of freedom, religious or otherwise. When the national media is skewed to the politically correct. Instead of the truth.
Everyone is so quick to jump to conclusions based on what they read or see on the news. Nobody ever even attempts to consider that there might be another side for truth in a situation.

The saddest commentary on the whole affair is just who is being manipulated and taken advantage of us or them.

I’d like to adopt…

I would also like to note that the FLDS people are not practicing the fundamental belief of the “Mormons”. I am a Mormon and the fundamental and core belief of the Mormon faith is Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. Polygamy is not a core doctrine nor was it ever a requirement of salvation at any time. It was a limited practice by less than 20% of Mormon population from 1840-1890. These Mormon fundamentalists are apostates from the true faith. They left the church after they were condemned and excommunicated by the church for taking “spiritual wives”. Their leaders are traitors and rebels of our faith, and we don’t really like the persecution we repeatedly get because of these guys. Mormons view the FLDS people as a completely separate group of people that have a created their own religion that does not reflect the vision and inspiration that Joseph Smith restored to the earth. What they are doing to these young girls is disgusting, and is an abomination in the sight of God.

We all know how those Mormon’s do it don’t we!

LDS people: Do yourself a favor and spend 5 minutes reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Those are the facts. All documented. All true. Not published by a self-serving plutocracy in SLC.

Thank you, Kara, for at least admitting that the FLDS church and the Mormon (LDS) church were once the one and same. The fundamentalists, however (FLDS) were not condemned and excommunicated for taking spiritual wives, they were kicked out because they CONTINUED to take spiritual wives after pressure from the U.S. Government forced the Mormon church to abandon the practice.

But never mind the 5,000 or so polygamists that are members of the FLDS church, how do you explain the roughly 55,000 other polygamists who still live in Utah? (PBS special: Polygamy in the West) The Mormon church never fully abandoned polygamy, it just went underground.

And my gosh, bloggers! Even if I didn’t know a lot of this firsthand, all the months the Warren Jeffs’ saga was unraveling on major networks, these matters were addressed. Didn’t anyone even see the PBS specials?

I pray for all the innocent brainwased women and children that were held AGAINST THEIR WILL at the ranch. I hope that they can be adjusted to how great their lives can be outside of that horrible place. I also hope that somehow we as a country can put a stop to any piligamist ranches where children and women are being treated so badly.

To Serenity NOW!!
If you are so educated and soooo religious then why don’t you stop call people names?!?!?!?!?

All the things that you have researched and found about polygamy does NOT mean it’s right, or that it’s ok! It just means that there were disgusting men/church leaders back then, and obviously still today!!!

To Jason and Mary Been There:

I see you’re at it again! Trying to hijack a blog about a tragedy in Texas to vent your grievances about the LDS Church which has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FLDS CHURCH!

Mary, I hate to tell you this, but the PBS special was surprise surprise edited with a particular slant in mind. Are there polygamists living in Salt Lake City. Yep, I went to school with some in Jr. High. Are they members of the LDS church? Nope, they aren’t. And, as long as they keep to themselves and aren’t abusing children, there’s not much one can do about it. The FLDS Church is not an offshoot of the Mormon church. They formed after 1890. Practicing Polygamy is grounds for excommunication, end of story.

Jason, answer me this. Why do you care? I mean honestly. What have the Mormons done to you? You don’t see Mormons getting on blogs and bashing Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, Jews, Muslims, etc. Let people believe what they choose to believe. I just don’t understand where all this hate comes from. It all comes down to what you feel in your heart and what you believe. I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. For every website and article and anti-mormon critic you site, I could argue the other side, but what’s the point. You’re not going to change my mind and obviously I’m not going to change yours. So, can we knock off the anti-mormon stuff and stay on topic. Thanks.

I think it is interesting that the LDS members on this board deny any involvement and condemn the FLDS. If that’s the case, then why do your LDS church’s leaders still accept money (tithe) from them?

To Eyes wide open:
The LDS church doesn’t accept money from the FLDS church. Tithing is paid by members of the LDS church to the LDS church.

I am just curious if anybody else has noticed.
The vast majority of women respondents seem only interested in lynching and crucifying any man in the general area, because they might be guilty.
While by the same token, the majority of male respondents seem to be more interested in defending the Constitution and worrying about the abuse of governmental power.

I really have to ask myself. Why is it? Only people in relatively small groups seem to be capable of being brainwashed?
That going off the assumption that these women and children were raised up in this environment of this religious belief and this is all they know, then how can they be victimized by doing was coming naturally to them?
they weren’t victimized until some social services crackpot told them they were.
now I don’t buy any means condone pedophiles and by the same token, I don’t condone psychopath feminists who subvert our legal system and our Constitution to inflict their delusions on the whole of society. If we want to see whole scale brainwashing look at any college or university with a woman studies course.

If you really want to be worried about something fear the people who can find ways to justify any action under the headings. It’s for your best interest. It’s for the greater good. and in ends justifies the means.
There are all kinds of persecution, and history has taught as one lesson . The majority of people are feeble minded enough to buy into propaganda if it’s served on the plate. They want to hear.
If you don’t believe me, ask an old German

To jennifer:

What name calling did I do? When I used the term ignorant, it was in the sense that someone was not aware of the actual history. When someone denies the atrocities that went on in Missiouri and later in Illinois, that is like telling the Jews the Holocaust didn’t happen.

I am a appaled by all these letters written against the Mormom Church. I do have one question though… I was Protestant, then converted to Mormonism and later left the Church… Why does the Mormons just ” bow” to Joseph Smith and Brigam Young as them 2 broke so many laws? such as Polyandry? ( when Joseph claimed he had a vision to marry his neighbor’s wife and Joseph will give him another one? what a mess? so much resemblance in children due to the past incest in the 1800″s , …like “clones” sisters marrying same husband, cousins marrying each other? Why would you want to be part of worshipping Joseph Smith that was 14 when he had this vision ? I was a Mormon Once for many years, and I left it due that I needed to choose between Jesus or Joseph…as Jesus did not brake the laws, he was perfect, this is why this country is comparing the LDS to the FLDS as they still have many same views…such a these laws that are been broken by the FLDS as they worship a Prophet ….as I am sure the LDS do not agree with Warren Jeff ? why? this man is doing the same thing as Joseph Smith did…So why worshipping in a man that broke all laws? ? as this causes problems for the LDS.
The LDS Church should: A) Remove Joseph Smith and Brigam Young ( as them been crooks will alleviate the negativity towards the LDS)
B) Allow all members inside the Temple ( as this will take away The ‘Cult thinking” )
C) All Bishops should be required of extensive training such as religion and marriage counseling ( as mine was dumb as a door knob)
And about these abuses in Texas ? it is descending from the past Joseph Smith doings, has anyone wonder why Utah is pretty high in sex offenders? This is why this world is up against this Church , so, for me after 32 years , I am done.. I seen it , I suffered from it I am not a young person now…. but wiser and smarter , no one can brainwash me, I am too smart for that, I stuck to it to save my children from loosing me. Just wanted for all of you to not judge them as the majority are so kind and loving , and do live a righteous life. we need to respect that.. it is important… To which his own , unless abuses and fraud comes in to life…

Serenity NOW!

Money talks–you can’t tell me that your LDS church leaders weren’t given money to look the other way. Yeah right. Call it tithe call it payoff–I’ll tell you what I call it–heinous.

To Kristen:

I’m sorry you had such a negative experience. I wish you well.

However, the LDS church doesn’t worship Joseph Smith. We worship Jesus Christ.

To Eyes wide open: The LDS church has never accepted money from the FLDS church. Why would they? It’s not like they need it.

This is a legal issue. It is to be handled by lawyers & judges, not religious clergy.

Actually, Serenity NOW, polygamy is illegal so there is something that can be done about the groups in Utah, Arizona, Texas, etc. Law enforcement for some reason or another chooses not to.

I worry that the ‘coldness’ of the social services will just ‘prove’ that the outside will force evil upon them. Women should not have to turn their children over to the state. A program needs to be implemented that will allow counseling for the mothers and their children. Homes need to be opened that will allow several families to live and adapt together instead of being ripped apart. I pray that this process is done in a way that is sensitive to the emotions and fears of all involved. What a scary thing for these people, but if done right, these women will finally be able to come alive and think for themselves and let their little children be little children.

And Serenity, if Mormons are not blogging on other religions websites, they are sending out thousands of 18-21 year olds to tell anyone and everyone who will listen that every religion is wrong except for Mormonism. Also, the temple ceremony for MANY years blatantly called Baptist ministers messengers of Satan.
Not only that, but Mormons secretly spit upon everyone’s religious choices by baptizing the dead by proxy, without their families consent, in temple ceremonies. This is very disrespectful. So here I am publicly telling you my opinion, where you can respond. You, on the other hand, secretly take the names of those I love and violate every good act they did by saying none of it was worth anything, because in order to get to the “Celestial Kingdom” they have to be baptized in the Mormon church. So don’t tell me we are hate-mongers and liars.
Most of us that have strong feelings about the LDS church and its history were born, raised, and indoctrinated in the LDS church. I can tell you for a fact that the History I know now was not the history I was taught as a little girl and a teen-ager and a young adult, or even as an adult and temple-goer.

Joseph Smith- Rough Stone Rolling was not recommended reading. Now I have read it, and knowing what I do about church history, it makes my stomach churn.

Your opinion will stay the same and so will mine. But don’t act like you don’t ‘bash’ other religions.
You do….Secretly, or ‘Sacredly’ as Mormons love to say…however, to me those attacks are more sly and viscious than anything I could say here. I have been there… I have lived it, felt it, even loved it. No Longer.

The comment by Eyes wide open makes no sense. It is obvious that you don’t know anything about the Church if Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints (LDS Chuch). I really don’t think you should make things up to try to prove a point (especially a false point).

The fact is that there are radical factions that have broken off of the LDS church just like other churchs and religions in the world. The so-called FLDS church broke off over 100 years ago and is completely crazy. There teachings and practices about polygomy don’t even match the LDS’ during the period when it did practice polygomy.

If you read the Bible or study the history of Christianity, you know that sine the time of Christ there have been radical sect that have their own interpretation of doctrine.

Any effort to say that the LDS church supports or is even affiliated to the FLDS church is just away to try to bash “Mormons”. Knowing the real LDs church, some of these comments don’t even make sense.

Serenity, I admire your fierce defense of your religious beliefs and the Mormon Church. Good for you and I mean it. We have freedom of religion in this country and if you want to worship a dill pickle, that’s okay with me. I don’t even personally mind polygamy among consenting adults, though it happens to be against the law.

But how you could actually write the words (were you secretly giggling?) that the PBS special was “slanted”, in the face of the century-long, wholesale rewriting and reinvention of the Mormon religion, is mind-boggling.

In any case, you are so busy defending your belief system that you haven’t noticed all the other critical issues being presented. What, to you, is the topic you insist we stay focused on?

By the way, the article in the St George Spectrum said that the Mormon Church members were participating in “ritualistic child abuse and infant sacrifice” – I miswrote it before, using the word “infanticide.” But I have since found the article and want to be accurate about the report.

Finally, I once was told by a Mormon bishop, an educated man who was trying to proselytize me, that his blood line had “never mingled with the mud races.” This wasn’t that long ago. Don’t try and tell me that anything has changed in Mormondom.

I find it very disturbing that Mormons on this board feel their “beliefs” are being so “attacked”. Who do you think is responsible for the tragedy of a 12-YEAR-OLD-CHILD being raped!!!
Who put these sick ideas in their head?? The devil himself–by telling Joseph Smith he could be a “god”. Just like the devil did to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden–go ahead…eat the forbidden fruit…you won’t die…it will make you just like God…

You are absolutely entitled to believe what ever sick version you want to, and deny any sick part of it you want to try and make yourself a little “cleaner”. The truth is that
deception and manipulation lead to perversion.

To Drovin:

You are right polygamy is against the law, but without proof, how can you prosecute it? Are the police supposed to follow the polygamists around until they see a man with two women and then arrest him on the presumption that he’s a polygamist? The only way polygamy is prosecuted is if someone comes forward, like in the Texas case and reports it, otherwise it is extremely difficult to prove. When they can, polygamists can be prosecuted for Welfare fraud, but unless someone comes forward polygamy itself is difficult to prove.

As far as your experience in the church, I’m sorry that was your experience, but that is not my experience and I think many of the problems that all religions face today is that they are judged by the experiences of a few and not the majority. I am 34 years old and a woman and have never felt the need to “bash” anyone’s beliefs. I’m too comfortable with my own to feel the need to tear down someone else’s.

As for sending out missionaries, yes, we believe that we have an obligation just like those in Christ’s time to spread the Good News.

Sorry you had such a bad experience.

To Mary,

By getting back on topic, I mean let’s talk about the situation in Texas and the people who are affected.

Your “slanted” comment is not worth commenting on. Doug Wright who is a talkshow host on KSL Radio in Salt Lake City interviewed the woman who created the documentary. At one point, she threatened to pull her documentary from PBS because Frontline was insisting that she edit it in a particular way.

As for the story in St. George, give us the link so that we can all read about it.

Eyes Wide Open, Mormons actually like to have their faith attacked. It reinforces their ideas that the LDS church is true because they are taught from a young age that any attack is an attack by satan because he is soooo threatened by their church. So, while part of them feels offended, the other part feels validated.
But you do have a point. This would not be happening today if Joseph Smith did not start it way back then. The mainstream LDS church has done an excellent job white-washing its history and removing the most offensive parts of the religion. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing. But it still doesn’t make it true.

To Eyes wide open:
Are you claiming that Joseph Smith raped these poor, innocent girls in Texas? Are you kidding?
Why don’t we place blame where it belongs on the leaders of the FLDS church.

So, Serenity Now are you saying you do not participate in Baptisms for the Dead?
I know when I was a member, we were asked to visit the temple regularly to do Baptisms and perform Temple Ordinances for the Dead. You do not feel this is disrespectful to the lives the ‘dead’ lived? According to the LDS faith, even Mother Theresa needs a Mormon baptism in order to get into the ‘Celestial Kingdom’.
It wasn’t a ‘bad’ experience, it was the Mormon experience. Perhaps you are not living the covenant to the fullest? I will certainly respect your beliefs and not go into detail, but seriously, what I described was the experience of every faithful, temple-going member of the LDS faith.

Anyway, Law Enforcement knows where polygamist groups live. Like in this article, they knew what was going on for several years. They had an informant. Why was nothing done? Because ‘as far as they knew’ no one was being abused. Right? So what was the informant telling them? That everything was peaches and creme? What is the point of an informant if nothing illegal is occuring?

I have been following this story and happened upon this web site and I can’t believe the comments being made about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am a member and I know for a fact that this church works very hard to teach our adult and young men that women are wonderful, special, and should never be abused. We believe in educating our women, I am a full time college student and mother of five myself. I have five children because my husband and I decided together to bring them in to this world. If we did not believe the way we do we probably would have settled for two children and a boat, a couple vacations a year…. Anyway, I love my family and the choices we have made.

MARYBEENTHERE, You keep making insidious comments to imply that you have some inside track on the real truth about the Mormons. Whatever, you’re just coming off as bitter and hateful.

I know what our beliefs are. There are always evil men lurking in any religion. The truth is that what we teach is a wonderful religion. We want our children to contribute to the world by exemplifying Jesus Christ in their actions. We teach them to go about life as people of integrity, kindness, and charity. OH yea we are a little weird because we try to take care of our bodies and minds by staying away from addictive substances and behaviors. I can’t think of anything to criticize about those things. Must be a wonderful religion.

In the earlier years of our church polygamy was a practice. You could never make me believe that it was to help fulfill the sexual fantasies of those men who practiced it. I think it was a necessary union put in use to help support and perpetuate the people of this religion during a very difficult beginning. It was not easy to be a member of our church and those early members must have had very sure testimonies to endure the abuse they suffered for being members. Also, not all of the men practiced polygamy. It was not used to promote pedophilia as in these FLDS churches. The reason that we quit practicing polygamy was not because they were forced to. It was because they wanted statehood for Utah. Well, they had to give up polygamy in order to become a state. For one thing our church teaches that we should obey the laws of the land. Its in our articles of faith. So, the president of the church at that time made this a matter of prayer and was impressed that polygamy did not need to be practiced any longer. The rest is history. There were always people who broke away from the original church to practice their own twist on the religion. One example was when Joseph Smith was murdered and some members did not support Brigham Young to be the new prophet/president. So, the ones who thought that Joseph Smith’s son should be the new prophet stayed behind and became the RLDS church.
Okay, and as far as the blah blah blah about the church changing its papers??? I always have to laugh to myself whenever I hear of these things. Like these accusations are going to make me give up my beliefs. We use the Book of Mormon and the King James version of the bible and we always get accused of using false scriptures or “adding on to the bible”. What a joke! Other religions attack us in this way yet these same religions use so many variations of the bible. So many words are altered or changed to make them more “sensible” for our day in age. One example is one that came out about twenty years ago, “The Book” I think this only takes away from the true meaning of the scriptures when you change the wording or translation to make it fit to you instead of religions trying to fit to the scriptures.
Another thing. If these were biblical times, as in Old Testament, God would have probably sent the Israelites to destroy these FLDS groups because they would have been seen as an “abomination”. Thank goodness people have finally been directed to free these young ladies and women.

Drovin:
Polygamy is illegal and should be prosecuted. So should LOTS of other crimes that people commit everyday.

I am really sick tired of society saying we have to be so tolerant of everyone’s religious beliefs–

It is my belief that I don’t have to be tolerant–deal with it! I’m not the devil, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and he is GOD! The devil can’t say that!

I can say Mormons beliefs are sick and wrong if I want to–why?—BECAUSE THEY ARE!!!

Everyone stop for just a moment–close your eyes–picture a small, precious, innocent girl–a daughter, niece, grand daughter…

Now…think of a 50-year-old-pervert man—raping her

How about Joseph Smith having sex with girls FOURTEEN-YEARS-OLD!

I’ve just thrown tolerance out the window–is this “un-Christian”?? Did Jesus tell a few of the Jewish leaders of the day that they were snakes and their father was the devil? I believe he did!
No, I’m not Jesus–but I walk with Him–and he is returning–not as a lamb–but a LION–and I don’t think “tolerant” will be in His vocabulary.

Your silence on what I said speaks volumes. Just as I thought, you are a ’secret’ religion basher.
Thank you for at least not denying it this time. I was Mormon though and I understand that you view what you are doing as an ‘important work’ and it does not occur to you that it is terribly disrespectful.

I hope they can find all the documents they need to put every one of those men in prison for a very very long time. Hiding behind religion to abuse children and women. What cowards. I would love to be a fly on the wall in that prison….lol.

Well, Serenity NOW!

I suppose you would have to ask the fourteen year old girls if they felt raped by Joseph Smith–or do you feel qualified to speak for them???

I suppose Hitler didn’t actually “kill” himself 6 million Jewish people–but he sure got the credit for it!

Mary been there
WHAT? you recently stated an old argument against the Book of Mormon by quoting the Book of Revelation. This is meant to imply that the Book of Mormon was an addition to the bible and so therefore is wrong. How does this make sense? At the time that this scripture in Revelation was given there was no Bible. The Bible was made up of a compilation of records by prophets. These records and testimonies are not in the Bible in the order they were written. Since there was no bible at the time that John made this record do you really think he was referring to the bible or would he have been referring to the things that he saw and recorded. I think he meant that he didn’t want his writings to be distorted or taken from or added to.

To Drovin:
You want to talk about Baptisms for the Dead. Let’s talk about Baptisms for the Dead… Here’s a link for everyone to read:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1ec52f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

or (if this link doesn’t work)

go to http://www.lds.org and type “Baptism for the Dead” in the search box.

We believe that just like in life, one can choose to accept or reject Baptism after death. Per Jesus Christ, Baptism is required by all.

We have NOTHING to hide. Our temples are sacred but one can view the interior of a temple prior to dedication or re-dedication. As for what takes place in the LDS temple, I will not discuss that because it is sacred & special to me. However, I’ve never heard any doctrine of the LDS church either inside or outside the temple that encourages or approves the bashing of anyones religion.

I can’t speak for FLDS doctrine.

Inman, I agree that most Mormons are upstanding people. Like I said before, the LDS church has done a fantasic job white-washing the history of the church and ending the most offensive of their practices, including several things in the temple.
I think these changes have made for a better, more mainstream religion, but very different from the one ran by Joseph Smith and subsequently Brigham Young…

I have a lot of respect for my family who is still Mormon. I love them and I do not try and change their opinion about their church. I choose not to be a part of it, because I actually believed that everything was true, from the very beginning, and then I found out it wasn’t.

The FLDS is very different from the LDS church of today, but is more like the LDS religion of the past than the current LDS faith.

To Eyes wide open:
Wow! Now you’re comparing the Prophet Joseph Smith to Hitler?
I think I’ve now heard it all.

Drovin and Eyes are correct on all counts. Their truth clearly came at a price.

And make no mistake: the exploitation, incest, abuse, rape, and brutality that was a way of life for the members of the FLDS group in Colorado City/Hilldale had been known about by law enforcement for decades. The state and federal authorities knew about it. No action was taken (and Eyes is correct about the money being filtered to the LDS church from the FLDS group) because of the power broker in the area – the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And why? Because they feared that what would happen is precisely what is happening now – that they would be linked to it. They didn’t care how many generations of women and children were suffering so long as the pall didn’t fall on them.

Serenity, the article was cut out of a St. George newspaper around 1991; it didn’t come from the net.

Also, since you mentioned the effort by Mormon missionaries to spread the “good news” – Mormon missionaires are trying to bring people to the Mormon faith, not to Christianity. Historic Christianity bears no resemblance to Mormon beliefs. None. There are approximately 2 billion Christians in the world today – Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox – and not a single one recognizes Mormonism as a Christian denomination. The Mormon hierarchy has done a lot of reinvention, but to become a true Christian church, they would have to wipe the slate clean and start all over. And I assure you – though I would love for them to do this as I love many Mormon people – they aren’t going to do it because they are not going to abandon the power, control, and wealth they enjoy.

To Eyes wide open 10:46 PM Comment:

It isn’t society saying we have to be tolerant and loving. It is Jesus. He won’t save you nor I nor anyone in their hate. Luke 10:27.

I’m sorry you hate Mormons. I don’t hate you.

Doesn’t isn’t sound silly to think that the FDLS church would give money to the LDS Church? For what? It’s such a ridiculous theory. Look at it from the perspective of a normal everyday person. The LDS church goes out of its way to not have any association with the LDS church yet the FLDS gives them money. That’s as ludicrous as any other Church of the Whatever secretly paying tithing to the LDS church. For what benefit? These people keep their money for their own organization. Why would they give it the LDS church. Did you always want to grow up to be Nancy Drew and now you make up conspiracies where there aren’t any to make yourself feel like a detective. You probably think our own government knocked down the World Trade Centers.

“We believe that just like in life, one can choose to accept or reject Baptism after death. Per Jesus Christ, Baptism is required by all.”

You believe—not Jesus’ belief

Tell me–was the thief on the cross baptized?

Baptism of the dead?? Can you give any scriptures in God’s Word for such a claim? I read my Bible a lot and nowhere do I find anyone “baptizing” anyone dead.

John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. ” Why dosen’t Jesus say “baptized’?

1 Corinthians 1:17
“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.”
Why didn’t Apostle Paul feel he didn’t “have” to baptize? He was one of Christ’s greatest apostles.

Where in the Bible did ANYONE baptize the dead??? Nope–not in there, must be just another addition!!

So, Serenity, if everyone just needs to be baptised, is a Catholic baptism valid to you? What about a non-denominational Christian baptism? I can actually answer that for you…No. So, to you, was Mother Theresa’s life enough? Or does she need Mormon Baptism? How about Hitler? Was Hitler’s actions forgivable? According to you, absolutely! Why, because he was baptised by proxy in the Mormon temple, so as far as Mormons are concerned, If Hitler ‘accepts’ this baptism, all of his sins are forgiven him….And you will be happy to stand by his side in the Celestial Kingdom. Sweet, and oh so enlightened of you. Mother Theresa was not good enough, and Hitler was not bad enough. Interesting. What you are doing is saying, it does not matter your faith or your evil. Every good act you did means nothing, it had ZERO value, we are going to baptize you, so that your slate is wiped clean. And if you don’t accept it, god does not accept you. That is a little messed up.

Maybe you are too young to have attended the temple ceremony where the Methodist minister (I forgot earlier and said Baptist, it has been a while) was the devils spokesperson. I suppose you are also too young to have attended the temple ceremony where you were required to make motions like you are slitting your own throat and disembowling yourself as a symbol of what you would do to yourself if you spoke of the secret words and tokens and handshakes you learned in the temple. (this was prior to 1990 just for reference). It is much nicer now and much more tolerable. Several changes have been made since then to make it even more comfortable. Weird how Brigham Young said the temple ceremony would never be changed ‘one iota’. That guy was crazy wrong about a lot of things. Like the temple, blacks and the priesthood, and oh yes, polygamy….

Cuervogold : You say this is not about Religion, but maybe if you thought about it in a different light, it would bring a defining pattern of relationship to the matter. Religion is a structured path of guidelines for a spirit to follow, and the Bible is considered one of those structured paths. The spirit of these spiritual leaders is distasteful to say the least. But they can back some the treatment of submissive behaviour for the female sex, even in the new testament. Also, if you look at Proverbs 23: 12-14, which states: “Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge. Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. — Maybe in those times beating meant something else, but that doesn’t mean current day men of some types of intelligience will interpret it in the proper manner. I cannot profess to know what they meant at that time, but I do believe that it could be misconstrued by certain misguided individuals. I am not saying that they are all truely misguided, but only that it is a possibility that should be discussed.

Serenity NOW!

I don’t “hate” anyone! Why is it when someone is so disgusted with the lies and misrepresentation of God and chooses to say something about it that it is considered “hate”?
When Jesus was in the temple and drove out the money changers–was he ‘hating”?? Absolutely not! He was disgusted! He was angry at the deception! SO AM I !!

Love does cover a multitude of sin–true–Christ’s blood on the cross covered all sin. Do you think when He returns He’s going to be a lamb? He is going to be a lion! He will punish those who deceive and distort His TRUTH!

It is in LOVE that I tell you that Mormon beliefs are not true.

To Mary:

I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior. I have accepted him as my Savior. Whether or not you or anyone else labels me a Christian doesn’t matter. I’m not looking for your acceptance as a true “Christian”, however you define it. I respect you as a Christian.

The LDS church actually closely resembles the Early Church under the direction of Jesus. We have 12 Apostles whom we revere as prophets, seers, & revelators. If you are interested you can read more at http://www.lds.org .

Regarding your St. George article. Let’s assume it’s true. The LDS Church doesn’t sanction abuse of ANY kind. Those that are convicted of a crime should pay the price.

To Eyes & Mary:
Show me the money! Show me the proof. The LDS church has NEVER accepted money from the FLDS church no matter how many times you want to accuse them.

I just have to respond to what Drovin said about baptizing Hitler. That is not how baptism alone does not get you into the Celestial Kingdom. Let me tell you how I think about this. I am first generation member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I had to mull this over a bit because we do this work for dead family members to make sure they have received a baptism. So, I thought about this a few times and realized that I didn’t even really like a lot of my family members. A lot of them were abusers and not very good people. So, I thought why should I do this for them. Then it occurred to me that I wasn’t doing this for them because they were deserving or because they were really great people. It was because they could then be judged by the same standards that I will be judged. To me this is very logical. If I am judged against Hitler then surely I am going to the good place. We have no idea how we will be judged, but I think that the cries of the innocent will weigh very heavily against abusers whenever that judgment comes.

Serenity NOW!

Can you say Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and He is God?

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Thomas seeing the wounds of Jesus
John 20:28
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Thomas believed Jesus was God

Serenity, thanks for your comments. You know, I believe in my heart of hearts that many Mormons accept the basic tenets of Christianity, and maybe your church is emphasizing them more. I don’t doubt your personal beliefs at all. But, bottom line, the Mormon Church is not a Christian denomination. Nothing can make it so as it now exists.

Your asking about the proof on the money flow from FLDS to LDS is completely valid. And frankly, I can’t prove it. By the same token, I don’t think you (not being disrespectful) can prove it didn’t. But the money flow into the FLDS community was significant. And money and power and “turning a blind eye” always go together. “Eyes” may have proof but I, in fact, do not. I just was close to the situation and cannot believe otherwise.

I do not know what happened with the situation that was reported in the St. George newspaper. The story was quickly squelched, as you might imagine. But, in fairness, I can’t believe that, once exposed, that the Church would not move swiftly to shut down any such criminal/perverse activity(sorry to use strong words, but that’s what it was). But the whole matter vanished from public scrutiny. The power of the LDS Church in Utah cannot be underestimated.

To Drovin:
I never said Hitler would be saved. I never said Mother Teresa wouldn’t be. It’s through the Grace of Jesus that we are saved. Please see 1 Corinthians 15:39-42. Christ is the Judge.

To Eyes:
Please see 1 Corinthians 15:29 regarding Baptisms for the Dead.

Regarding being “born again”. Jesus taught that we must be Baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. He was Baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Ghost decended on Him like a dove. Also see John 3:5 . It says we must be Baptized by water and the Spirit. Jesus provided the example.

I agree with you that Christ will come again as a Lion. But he will also come as a thief in the night. I’m trying to prepare for that day, as are you. Let’s respect each other. I think we probably have much more in common than you think.

To Mary:

I believe in Christ. He’s our Savior. It’s through His Grace we are saved. Label me “Christian” or not. That’s OK with me.

Regarding all the money flowing into the FLDS church. Much of it comes from child labor in Nevada, Utah, & Arizona. There are a lot of articles out there about FLDS child labor. Free labor = Large profits.

I think those women children are so traumatized, that the more prayers and wished of healing that this earth can send their way, the better chance they will have. Matthew 17: 20 “And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard see, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove: and nothing shall be impossible unto you.” I think Jesus would be grateful for all of your support, and feel blessed to have a people that loved and believed in him so much that they wanted his best interest to be done.

Inman, I don’t know what people have been telling you, but Mormons believe baptism washes away ALL of your sins. This is true of everyone you are baptized for in the temple, if they accept it. Then someone performs the temple ordinances for them and if they accept those, they have the same words, tokens, and handshakes that you have and not only that but they are sin free!
You can believe what you want though, I had to rationalize a lot of things in my head to do the things I did in the temple too.

Serenity, let me ask you a question: if the child labor associated with the FLDS group was so evident – which it was, if for no other reason than the huge profits – why would the LDS Church, whose high ranking members largely make up the Utah legislature and are also the law, turn a blind eye to such abuse? This is decades and decades of abuse. Why did the Mormon Church tolerate it?

Serenity Now, I am confused. Are you a BIC mormon or just a recent convert, because your recent comments would indicate that you are not familiar with the doctrine of the LDS faith. I have attended many years of seminary, institute, gospel doctrine, etc and your comments directly contradict Mormon Doctrine. I know there have been a lot of changes as of late, but this would be a huge change!
I know a lot of Mormons now-a-days are social mormons, meaning they are in it for the basic morals and community experience, which is very good, but not the deep down doctrine. If you are a social mormon, that would explain. My sis is a social mormon and doesn’t care to know the early history or deep doctrine of the church, which is cool.

Good point Mary, if the illegal child labor is so well documented, why would it not be acted upon? Polygamy is a huge scar upon the face of Mormonism, not only that but it is a practice that Mormons believe will continue after death. So, it would be hypocritical of them to condemn or encourage law enforcement to act upon related laws, and it would be easy to turn a blind eye to any unsavory activity going on in those communities.

To Mary:

Most of the large child labor cases were actually in the Las Vegas & Mesquite, Nevada areas on construction sites. So I guess we would have to ask the Nevada authorities.

I do remember a recent minor case in St George, Utah in which a bystander took photos of what appeared to be FLDS children at a construction site. The authorities did respond right away. By that time, the kids were long gone and never came back.

I believe if the authorities can catch them, they will convict them no matter what state they’re in.

Drovin, No I assure you that we do not believe that you can go to live with God if you died with murder, in your heart no matter how many times you are baptized. If you were raised this way I can see why you left. I hate to say it but if you read the Book of Mormon you would see that that is not how we believe.
Anyway, I am out of this conversation. I’m off to bed
You all have fun.

Drovin, I agree with you: there is no doubt that what was going on in Colorado City was a dilemma for the LDS Church. After the 1950s raid on Short Creek (later given the name Colorado City), it was just a messy situation. So it was tolerated. No one knew what to do and the authorities in both Arizona and Utah sat on the issue. But when St. George’s population began to explode, more and more attention was given by the public to Colorado City – it became a real curiosity. Colorado City made small efforts to deal with the increased attention, but what was being perpetuated there was too dark and criminal to hide. It was a situation that was festering and had been festering for some time. No one could bid lower on federal contracts than this group – many, many federal dollars poured into the commune, from grants, contracts, and from ADC. Anyone who worked outside turned their checks over to the leaders. Eventually, about 35 men, all members of the group, “saw the light” – that it was all a big fraud – and filed a case against the organization. I never knew how that turned out, but when I say these guys saw the light, like with “eyes” – their eyes were definitely opened. So by then, even from the inside, things were beginning to break apart and things were getting uncomfortable for Jeffs and those still loyal to him. Makes me sick to read that when they moved to Texas, that they took all the children six and under with them. It’s impossible to think about.l

To Drovin:
What about my comments makes you question my membership in the LDS church?

Regarding your comment to Inman, Baptism does wash away all sin but it is ultimately by the Grace of Jesus that we are saved. Baptism doesn’t guarantee you’ll be saved. In fact, the power by which Baptism is performed is the power of Christ. The Baptism must be accepted by Christ. He is the Judge. Also, you must repent before Baptism. If you are wicked while living, you’ll still be wicked when you’re dead. If you are righteous while living you will still be righteous when you die. Baptism isn’t going to change your heart without repentance beforehand. Repentance and Baptism go hand-in-hand. The fourth Article of Faith in the LDS Church reads… “We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second repentance, third baptism by immerson for the remission of sins, fourth laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Thus, what does baptism profit someone like Hitler or Stalin or anyone if they reject Christ and don’t repent of their sins.

I am tired to, sleep well all. It has been an interesting and heated discussion, but I respect all of you who are true to your faith and I wish you all happiness.

I especially wish peace to all those women and children whose future is so uncertain. I am sure they are scared and it would be wonderful if they could see that there are many people out here that care about them and are willing to help.

Drovin, Mary, Eyes, Inman, et al:
Thanks for the discussion.

I too pray for those women & children in the FLDS church that have been abused in so many ways. God Bless Them!

Time for bed!

Drovin, one more thing: there are about 55,000 or so practicing polygamists in Utah, all aside from the FLDS. Again, it must be asked: why does the official church tolerate it and turn a blind eye. They do it just for the reasons you stated. The Church has kept a low profile on the practice, secretly tolerating it, as they have always done. There’s a reason Colorado City and FLDS were allowed to thrive. The Mormon Church in Utah knows everything that goes on. Everything! They have had total control since their arrival in 1847. They are incredibly adept at weathering any difficult or embarrassing matter that is exposed. They have allowed unspeakable and unconscionable acts/practices by ignoring (maybe ignoring) the FLDS group.

Same here – goodnight to you all. May God bless each of you, as well as the women and children who have just been rescued in Texas.
Mary B.T.

lt is unbelievable this is allowed to happen in modern day USA, this could never happen in UK.

I have two serious questions:

If most of the 419 children are girls, where are the boys?? Why isn’t there a fairly equal mix of boys and girls on that ranch? Where are the boys??

Where are the dead? If they are marrying in secret and bearing children in secret, isn’t it likely they are having funerals in secret too?

WHERE ARE THE DEAD?
WHERE ARE THE BOYS?

I notice most of the girls are married to much older men, not even young men close to their own age. WHERE ARE THE BOYS?

To all you Mormon blogists out there, I would suggest that you give up your preaching through this medium. There is no spirit here and not likely to ever be any, without which nothing positive will result. You are throwing your ‘pearls to the swine’. For all your good intentions this is not the place to try to convince anyone of the salient truths of the gospel. Anti Mormon bigots will never change their position and they are unlikely to want to because of all the lies they have been fed and have accepted as true. So, please, don’t get sucked into discussions here that are fruitless and in doing so splash the really fine points of the Mormon doctrine to those who would trample it under their feet and who’s minds are made up and closed. So, give it up!

This is a comment from Fox News’ article about the “Sect Children Faces New World”.

“Most of the sect’s children have never attended public schools or worn modern clothing. The girls wear long, pioneer-style dresses and keep their long hair pinned up in braids.”

This is sensationalism. No I am not Mormon, but I do think that the news has taken this too far. Never attended public schools? Oh well. Who cares what they wore, and how their hair was done? Did they ever have their nails painted? That wasn’t mentioned…

To me, this little section was very unnecessary, and very unnewsworthy.

Another clip from the same article:

“Child welfare officials seized more than 400 children, most of them girls”

How many pounds of marijuana did they seize? Oh, they were talking about children…weren’t they rescued? No, they were seized according to this article.

Again, I would like to respectfully request that if we are going to report the news, that we do not sensationalize it, please. If we talk about human beings, please use the words to describe them in a respectful way. Thank you.

Cheese and Rice! Is there no end to the faithful follies? As much as it pleases me to watch the demise of religion…I can’t help but feel sorry for all it’s victims.

To Gonzo:

Oh, those poor little twisted polygamists, oh, when with their persecution ever end? Never, as far as I’m concerned. You say that we make a big deal out of their milking our welfare system but we aren’t so concerned about the mainstream welfare suckers. Well, we are concerned about welfare suckers on both ends. The problem is that under Warren Jeffs, it is a well-thought out and calculated plan to “bleed the beast”, by sucking out hard-earned tax dollars. It’s amazing how “outsiders” are evil and bad until it’s time for the Brinks truck to make it’s monthly delivery of welfare checks and food stamps.

To all of you twisted polygamists who engage in statutory rape in the name of your sick religion, get your tools ready, because you’re going to be making a lot of license plates and having close encounters with your friends in prison.

One more thing to all of you polygamists out there: For the love of all that is good, broaden your gene pool! I am sick of looking at people who look like they’re all part of the same family. No wonder there are so many deformities, etc. Take some classes in genetics if that’s not to “radical” for you; maybe you’ll learn about the concept of inbreeding and how it’s not a good thing.

More on Warren Jeff’s “Bleeding the Beast” campaign:

“Polygamy in the US is funded by the government. Millions of dollars of government funds pour into the polygamist communities. One former member said: “If it wasn’t for government subsidies, these people couldn’t survive. There are people here with 15 wives on welfare.” Another former member said: “I know women out there wouldn’t be having as many babies if it weren’t for the welfare. I remember being told this was a work for God and it was up to the outside world to make us flourish.” A second wife is not legally married and is thus recorded as an unwed mother with dependents needing assistance. “It’s a way of life. You get married, you go on welfare, and that’s it.

Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says of the polygamists: “More than 65 percent of the people are on welfare …compared with 6 percent of the people of the general population.”

A 1998 report showed that a third of the residents in polygamist communities were using government food stamps, almost ten times the average for the state. One household alone had 37 people on food stamps. In addtion to welfare the communities are given millions by various government agencies for roads, schools, housing and other projects. The funds go to “agencies” controlled by the church.

The Salt Lake Tribune reported: ” Among towns with a population of more than 2,000, Colorado City and Hildale rank among the top 10 in the Intermountain West in relying on Medicaid, which provides health care for the poor, and the Women, Infants and Children (WIC) program, which supplies food to low-income mothers. The twin towns’ reliance on WIC and Medicaid rivals only Western Indian reservations and inner cities, where poverty has been a fact of life for decades — and where government assistance often has fallen short.” They wonder “whether [polygmists] can support their large numbers of children without taxpayer assistance.”

The homes of 19 polygamists were spruced up with government funds. The mayor of one of the polygamist towns, David Zitting, who is, of course, also a church member, said: “We did our homework. What can I say? It’s [government subsidies] there for everybody.” And when one Sheriff tried to investigate welfare fraud in the polygamist towns he ws told by the federal agencies involved to stop. The town even received $2.8 million in government funding to build an aiport. What need have they for an airport? Well, The Prophet, has his own personal Lear Jet. An airport manager said: “It took us about 12 years of politicking to get this done.”

Donna, good morning! Thank you for reenforcing, with some solid statistics, what I’ve been trying to state for a day and a half. One writer (clearly a member of the Mormon Church) chastised me for telling “whoppers.” Far from it. I suspect that when this entire story is revealed, which will include the Mormon Church’s full knowledge and tolerance of it, and its historic connection to it – understanding that Mormon Church leaders are also the state legislators and the law enforcers in Utah as they have always been – we will all be dumbfounded. What has been found at the FLDS compound is historic Mormonism in its rawest state. But even I will admit that, in this sect, it had cooked down to the foulest form of evil. The silver lining with Waco is that, this time, both federal and Texas state authorities were prepared. Thank God that good people – really good people with no ulterior motive – are helping these women and children.
And Donna – was this your question? The little boys were taken out on highways and abandoned. Or, at least, this was one way of disposing of them. In every way, they were as innocent and sheltered as the little girls. But now that the story has broken, I hope all authorites, including those in Arizona and Utah, will find the answers.

Donna, a p.s. on the little boys: don’t forget that Warren Jeffs was known for raping small boys, including his 8 year old nephew in a bathroom stall with his goons standing nearby. Its been some months since I saw this news clip, but I believe what I’m stating is correct. The boys were sexual fodder, too – until they were no longer of use.

Any church that keeps people out of a temple and has secrets is a product of hell. Jesus opens his arms wide and is open about all things.
God forgive all mormons.

This quote is from Foxnews:

In the call, the girl said that sect members warned her that if she ever left, outsiders would hurt her and force her to cut her hair, wear makeup and have sex with many men.

Most of the sect’s children have never attended public schools or worn modern clothing. The girls wear long, pioneer-style dresses and keep their long hair pinned up in a braid.

My first comment:

I DO NOT agree with the s-xual abuse of the anybody by any individual. I do want to bring up the following ideas:

1. Outsiders would hurt her, cut her hair, make her wear makeup & have s-x with many men. In the society we live in there is a promotion of the idea that you are not beautiful if you don’t CUT your hair or WEAR makeup. So in that respect SOCIETY would force that upon her. What’s wrong with a lady looking like a lady instead of a painted up girl showgirl. As to the S-X with many men…come on America, we live in a s-xually “liberated” culture, that promotes if it feels good do it and what right does anybody have to tell you you’re wrong in your actions…so in that aspect of their comments, they again are RIGHT…the Outsiders would bring S-Xual activity into their innocent minds that is wrong.

2. No public shool: Again what’s so wrong about children not attending public schools. Home schooling is proper, right and what our country promoted in it’s beginning. It was the public educating of children that has taken them from their parents and placed them into schools that promote the s-xual revolution, evolution and the removal of God from our schools, governments and homes.

3. Wearing pioneer dresses / No modern clothing: AND this is a bad thing? What right do you as the press, society and child welfare services have to tell parents and children that MODESTY is a bad thing…come on America what we wear today as whole on the beaches of America would have landed someone in jail 40 years ago….

4. No TELEVISION: Lions, Tigers and Bears oh my! AGAIN IS THIS REALLY A BAD THING>>>I was raised without a televsion, do not own one and will not have one for the sake of my children. We wouldn’t allow a rapist into our living rooms to “perform” live for our families in America, yet we do it every evening with the TV set in our livingrooms, bedrooms and dens. We would not allow someone to come in and murder someone in our kitchen or garage for our kids to watch yet we do it everyday with a TV Set….

Wake up America and Society, we don’t have it all together and there are many things we have lost in our “LIBERATED” culture.

tg
Paris, il

JUST so EVERYONE is CLEAR:

I DO NOT THINK FOR A MOMENT THAT THE S-Xual ABUSE OF THIS LITTLE ONES Boys/Girls is EVER right.

It’s wrong, sick and perverted….

But to say that: pioneer style clothing, uncut hair, no tv, modesty & private schools are wrong it also very disturbing.

tg

A thought: I wonder if the FLDS enclave in Colorado City was getting too sensational for even the Mormon Church to hide and protect, so is it possible they told Jeffs – we won’t prosecute you (remembering that the law and legislature are also the church leaders), but you’re leaving Utah. And so when the horrific story broke, it was hoped the association would be with Texas and Waco, NOT Utah and the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS), with which the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) were historically connected.)

Good God, the more than I read, the angrier I get. This “Bleeding the Beast” campaign is really bleeding our wallets: In addition to paying for massive welfare and food stamps (as outlined already in another post), now we find out that “the beast can be bled in other ways. The government allows benefits to be paid to child-care providers who are related to their charges, so one wife can be paid for taking care of another wife’s children. Both Colorado City and Hildale have received enormous sums for city projects that benefit mostly FLDS members. Colorado City received $2.8 million for an airport that serves only FLDS members.

Of course, contributions to the beast’s existence are anathema, so paying one’s taxes is a grave sin. Any FLDS member caught paying property taxes faces excommunication. This has resulted in the nonpayment of more than $1 million in property taxes of individual FLDS property owners living in Colorado City.

For years polygamists haven’t been prosecuted due to the argument that they aren’t hurting anyone but themselves. Now it is recognized that one of their most fundamental policies — taking all they can get through fraud and tax evasion — does indeed affect us all.”

****There’s more:

Fire and EMS services in the twin cities of C-City/Hildale, which were nearly non-existent until recent years, have received hundreds of thousands of dollars in state and federal grants. Some published reports put the number even higher, claiming that more than $1.8 million from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development has flowed into the town to pave streets, upgrade fire equipment and build a water-storage tank. Hildale got $94,000 for its fire station. And the government-financed airport on the edge of Colorado City cost $2.8 million.

Before long, government was big business in the former settlement of Short Creek, and served as a major employer. It was only natural that FLDS members would dominate the local governing bodies since the church’s members counted for the vast majority of the two towns’ residents.

Recently, the Colorado City School system reported their 2004-2005 budget at $6,794,474.00 to fund a staff of 123 teachers and aides while serving a total of 342 students. That comes to $19,866.88 per student.

Not counted in the school’s staffing number were other auxiliary employees like bus drivers, cafeteria and maintenance workers. It has been noted that while the teaching staff consists almost entirely of non-FLDS members, the administration and all support staff are members of the fundamentalist group that no longer sends its children to public schools.

Jon Krakauer, author wrote in his book “Under the Banner of Heaven” that fundamentalist leaders in Colorado City view the whole process as “creative budgeting.” He says that they regard it as a “virtuous act.”

“They are told to go on welfare. It’s called ‘bleeding the beast’ and they find it amusing that Satan is supporting God’s work.”

Very sad for all involved. However, when the children were told that the world outside the compound was hostile and immoral, they were definitely being told the truth.

Unfortunately, the world inside the compound was hostile and immoral as well.

Good morning, Mary been there:

I’ve read many of your posts, and I hear what you are saying. I honestly don’t know why anyone in their right minds would want to support people who honestly don’t care about anyone except themselves, who would kill you, as to look at you, and I don’t say that lightly. In my opinion, some of these “leaders” are analogous to the Mafia, many of them seemingly being self-acclaimed “Godfathers”. They seem to have their own henchmen, their own “enforcers” who allow them to get away with anything and everything, from child rape to tax evasion. I hope that the IRS comes down on them with full force as well. Can you imagine any of us not paying property taxes? Aren’t people’s homes being foreclosed on right now because of non-payment of mortgage and/or property taxes? What makes them immune to civil law that the rest of us abide by? I don’t get that, that’s for sure.

Also, I am amazed, no, absolutely shocked and mortified, that so many mainstream LDS are trying to downplay this travesty, trying to sweep it under the rug, trying to distance themselves as far as possible, to the point of even denying that this is happening. I have a Mormon friend who keeps denying that any of this stuff is true (the marriage bed in the temple, the child rape, incest, etc.). This friend is in her late 40’s, she’s not a spring chicken. Sometimes, I swear that she was raised with rose-colored glasses. She wants to know why I know more about this than she does. I honestly don’t, I’m not as versed as many people on this subject, it’s just that there are literally volumes of this online, that anyone with one good eye and one good ear could learn more than they’ve ever wanted to learn or know. To me, the faster you extricate the cancer, the better of survival the main organism has. Get rid of the bad apples so that the whole barrel doesn’t spoil. Catholicism let priests sodomize boys for years; kept hiding it, didn’t address it, and we’re paying for the sins of the past to this day.

As to the “Lost Boys”, I did know about that; that is a crime. As far as I’m concerned, those “parents” should be sued to for child abandonment. These people have been committing heinous crimes for years. The time to pay the piper is coming, I believe. Not a moment too soon.

To Alex:

I want to sincerely apologize to you and people who might be of the mainstream LDS faith who are feeling the brunt of these criminals’ actions. While I do not live in a heavily predominant area, (I live in the East), some of my very best friends, kindest, most giving, etc., are those of LDS faith and I see them a few times a year when I travel on business.

One thing that I did say in another post is that one of my internet friends (a person that I’ve known for many years) is not believing that this is happening; denies the crimes, etc. Almost everything that she types to me is about how these are all “accusations”, the “women are trying to make money” (the ones that have escaped and written books, etc.). That is really beginning to make me upset and I kind of questioning why she’s feeling this way.

In any case, we have to stick to the facts here, and that is that this branch of FLDS has gone WAAAAAY past religious beliefs and has twisted and perverted and used religion as a rationalization for their criminal behavior.

Thank you, Alex.

The root of all that is evil is religion. All the world ills can be traced directly to religions. All religion is man-made and not from any God.

Religion is for weakminded individuals.

Change the name from Mormon to Muslim and the story reads the same. If the Texas incident causes you concern think what the Muslim Church could, more than likely, is doing.

This is a bunch of crap. The whole Mormon church is a cult. To say this is an isolated thing is ridiculous.

My family has been ripped apart for 20 years since a family member married a NON-fundamentalist Mormon. She broke up our family & kept him (and his children) away from us for more than a decade, trying to convert him. Since that didn’t work she spends her time causing trouble between individual family members. She convinced her husband to complete cut off his son from a prior marriage & devote all his time & love to HER son.

And she is just a regular Mormon.

They don’t have the hightest suicide rates in the country for no reason, people. They believe they are going to be Jesus to their own planet somewhere in the solar system if they are holy enough in this life. That’s not the fundamentalists like Warren Jeffs – that is your everyday, normal, law-abiding Mormon.

That’s frappin’ NUTS. They are as nutty and “out there” as Scientologists.

Donna, you’ve done a great service by posting the information you have. Thank goodness you thought to do it.

And I couldn’t agree more with the “mafia” comparison. I like to compare historic Mormonism with the oppression and fear that made up East Germany or Romania. You didn’t dare speak out for fear that your neighbor, your friend, your husband, would turn you in to the Church authorities. The consequences were dire for those who protested. The “Danites”, or “destroying angels” as they were called, were Brigham Young’s henchmen, always available to “take care” of those who spoke out. All these characteristics were present in the FLDS sect. They were perpetuating what they had learned at the beginning. Though, of course, by this moment in time, they had spiraled completely out of control.

What was happening with the FLDS church in Colorado City was horrible: I know of one instance where the followers were all told to kill their dogs. Every now and then, there was a sick test to determine who the “faithful and obedient” were. I am just so thankful that all this is now seeing the light of day.

I am harsh in my words against the LDS Church, the Mormon Church, because they are the root of all this and it is ominous to me that they continue and continue to deny and evade any connection. As I wrote before – bluntly – they lie. They are as responsible for all this as Warren Jeffs himself.

I am just as disturbed about the young boys being sodomized by Catholic priests. What true and good religion would allow such heinous acts and turn a blind eye to predators who were destroying young lives and souls. Just like with the FLDS group, this was unchecked pedophilia in the veiled, protected name of religion. And this was the Catholic Church!! How was this any different than really freaky cults like the “Children of God” or the jungle kool-aid drinkers? It is ominous to me, too, that at the first sign of molestation, the Catholic Church didn’t immediately move to defrock, excommunicate, and prosecute these criminals. They were fully aware of what was happening. That they didn’t, and that the Mormon Church has never done anything about the FLDS sect, is very, very telling.

Anyway, Donna, I’m mighty glad you’re on this blog this morning. Thank you, again, for posting invaluable information.

Mary and Donna, it would not surprise me if the groups in Utah and Arizona are still secretly linked to the LDS church. Like you state, law enforcement, and state government officials ignore the illegal practices of polygamy, welfare fraud, etc. For a long time after the LDS church banned polygamy, it was still continued for quite some time, in secret. The LDS church is so big on making sure their prophets prophecies come true, they would want to honor Brigham Young’s prophecy that polygamy would be always be practiced in the church on earth and would therefore support and turn a blind eye to what was happening. Back when polygamy started only an ‘elect few’ were selected to participate…It wouldn’t surprise me if an ‘elect few’ were still practicing today.

The LDS, as a rule, has been very secretive about where their money goes. Most non-prophet organizations are very open about how funds are distributed. LDS, Inc is not one to open their books to their tithing contributors…So, I wonder…

Jason and T Greg, I understand what you are saying and I touched on it a little yesterday. Our world is very different than where they were raised. It is hard to raise children that can make good choices on their own. However, it is important that they are given the tools to make those choices. There is nothing wrong with home schooling, but it is wrong when the children are not being taught the basics.
Even though we have a sexually liberated country, these gilrs will be less likely to be ‘forced’ into having sex. They are currently forced into having sex at a very young age and in our world that is rape and not supposed to be tolerated. I can see how they would feel that their leaders were right, that the outside is full of evil, that is why I hope there can be some sort of program put together where the transition into the ‘real’ world is a slow process where they can realize instead of any lifestyle being forced upon them, they have the choice to wear what they want, worship how they want, school how they want (as long as the kids are being educated), etc. In a world were immodesty is rampant, I have still managed for my kids to be modest and educated and respectful. No one had to force them into early marriage or beat them or take away all of their thinking processes in order to do it either.

Hi Mary:

Thanks for your comments; I’m always learning something new. I think it’s important for all of us to not be afraid to shine the light on these criminals who flee in the light of day, choosing to operate in darkness and in secrecy. They, inevitably caused darkness for a lot of people via abuse, hate, shame, guilt, etc. I hope to God that their criminals acts are revealed for what they are: Laws Against Humanity. They are no different than the ones who went on trial at the Hague.

This is more than just “religious persecutution” and “big government stepping in the lives of private individuals”. I realize that this is their defense, however, I hope that their their defense will not hold up because it is full of holes. Oh, I know that they will try, they will try very hard pulling at our heartstrings, using smoke and mirrors to try to fool people, into scaring people, trying to convince us that if they’re prosecuted (which they fully should be), that we’re going to be next, that the government is the culprit and the it’s looking for ways to infiltrate the lives of private citizens. Unfortunately, some will buy into this illusion, and will bypass their crimes against humanity and will focus on “civil liberties” and “religious tolerance.” I hope that facts and statistics, as well as people’s personal accounts, convince people once and for all, that these are not good people; that these criminals, given the opportunity, would have no compunction taking anyone down, even their own brethren, because it is ultimately “for God” (in their own little twisted minds).

Thank you, Mary, for your comments as well.

P.S. – “Just-a-Cult” – I’m very sorry to hear about the troubles in your family’s life due to what you’ve described. Very sad sitution. Thank you for speaking out. The more people that speak out, the more that people will know what is happening. People that cause other people harm rely on the silence of their victims. We cannot let that happen.

Sorry, meant to say: “Crime against Humanity”, not “Laws Against Humanity”, although maybe it was a Freudian slip, as certainly their “laws” are indeed crimes against humanity, against human dignity.

Drovin, good comments. There is definitely a lot of sweeping things under the rug, not fully divulging information going on. From watching just the trailer of “Banking on Heaven” (polygamy trailer): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc
it certainly states that those at the very top have vested interest in keeping quiet about what goes on.

Oh, such good PR! I see that Yahoo News today (Saturday, April 12) already has a video of “happy Polygamous Wives” who apparently love it and wouldn’t have it any other way. Shows a GORGEOUS mansion type house, 32 bedrooms, etc. I wonder if they’re paying their own way for this or if we, the taxpayers, are subsidizing their lifestyle. Looks like a pretty modern set-up. One of the polygamous wives says that the problem in our modern society is that we can’t stay in committed relationships. Yeah, polygamy is the answer, hog dog! I have been married for almost 25 years to the same man, have a large Catholic family, no polygamy as of yet…

The house is probably owned by the polygamous dad who accepts section 8 payments. One or more of his wives is on section 8 and so the government pays the rent/mortgage.

Some serious digging needs to happen, kids and adults need to be DNA tested, so the right dad will have to start paying child support. These communities, since they are commiting welfare fraud and are organized about doing it, should be prevented from receiving any kind of governmnet aid. I don’t mind helping the women and children who are rescued or have escaped, but all those who are perpetuating this behavior need to be banned from receiving any kind of welfare. I would say jail them, but then we would just be paying for them some more. Just take away the money and see if they are able to actually work and pay for themselves.

One last thing, folks, and then I’m out of here, is this interesting tidbit: http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tips/getAttraction.php?tip_AttractionNo=%3D9852

Apparently, there’s a very interesting little law that says only finished houses are taxed, leaving the houses unsided means no property tax bill. Click on the link above to read the whole thing. It’s a very short article.

Have a good day, all!

Drovin, I think the FLDS group is still very much connected to the Mormon Church. They had the knowledge, power, and ability to do something about Colorado City and, decade after decade, generation after generation, they did not do it. My brothers, good men, have a theory that if you aren’t working to end something that is obviously wrong (child rape in the name of religion) then you are, somehow, a part of it. Years ago in Mississippi, there was an interstate child prostitution ring that was difficult to break. Turns out that about 25 attorneys in Jackson, MS were part of the ring. I’m saying this more flippantly than I’m feeling it, but I’d bet almost anything that there was more than one midnight run from Salt Lake City to the FLDS compound for a little of the “sport.”

Here is an excellent site for everyone that THINKS they know all about this topic.

http://www.i4m.com/think/

Very true, Drovin. We a larger family (live in NE OH), my husband earns a very good income; I have a small business. We use most of our resources to feed, clothe, and provide shelter for our family. We are a larger family living in a 3 bedroom, 1800 square foot house. Of course, we’re paying our own way. It is kind of hypocritic how our society tells us to “stand on our own two feet”, yet these well-heeled people seem to know something that the rest of us don’t. Interesting.

Thank you, Dahlwood.

Just want to add this: where it got dicey for the Mormon Church and Colorado City if, in fact, they were in a symbiotic “union” which I feel certain they were, was the unexpected explosion of growth in nearby St. George, Utah, 45 minutes away. And the growth did not consist of Mormons, all of whom are schooled to “protect the church at all costs” and would stay silent. The LDS Church had no control over the thousands of folks moving in, so it had to dump Jeffs and his group, but FAST. There were too many curious and peering eyes and, after all, Colorado City IS in the USA. If people wanted to drive around in the town, they could. Theory only, of course, but probable. Wonder how much blackmail was involved?

I have read every blog on this site, and I have learned a great deal. I feel down-hearted that the moral compass of our country has become so skewed that we must debate what is right and wrong, as if we must come to a consensus. Polygamy is an alternative lifestyle. Divorce and remarriage is serial polygamy. Why is one right and the other wrong? How is either different from having multiple sexual partners outside (or instead of) marriage? Are there are fewer teenagers having babies outside the compound as in? Are there fewer cases of incest and child rape outside as in? Are there fewer welfare mothers outside as in? Are there fewer deadbeat fathers who don’t support their children outside as in? Are there fewer people scamming the government outside as in? The truth of the matter is that we have lost our way. The family unit has been compromised, and while the FLDS may be an example of it, it is by no means the only one. And while I am struggling to pay my property and income taxes this April 15, I am upset that the FLDS is blatantly “on the dole”. But I am also upset that the government is bailing out person’s who over-extended themselves with $300,000 homes using my tax money. My home certainly didn’t cost anywhere near that. The welfare system is broken if it can be abused in this manner. The criminal justice system is broken if it concentrates on the polygamy issue rather than the child abuse rampant in this group. And, all religion is useless if it does not elevate the cause of humanity and alleviate human suffering and ignorance. I know it would be difficult to do, but I would send those children home with their mothers, requiring public education, and regular CPS involvement. I would insist that those women learn some vocation to help support their own children, since they decided to have them without a legal husband. And, any who refused to do so, I would cut off government benefits. I would prosecute the men to the full extent of the law, but to be honest with you, the law doesn’t do much. I worked in the Criminal Justice System in the state of Texas for 12 years, and I never saw a sentence over 7 years for rape, child or otherwise. It is a welcome distraction to concentrate on the sins of this community. It keeps us from doing anything about the ones in our own.

For most of English language history, the term white was use for terms like pure, clean, wholesome, godly, etc., and had no intent to refer to any form of racism or differenciation of race. Dirty was black and white was clean. While airplanes reflect light and black airplanes help stealth concerns.

The use of the word “white” may have been changed by the LDS to clarify the intent of the word to the current american CULTural view of the masses. The CULTure of sects like Baptists, Assemblies of God, etc, are often found twisting many simple truths of those outside their organizations so they can CULTivate attitudes according to their own desire.

trying my post again: i understand and agree with the media using “polygamist cult” rather than FLDS so that there is no association with the LDS. But on another subject, some questions for those who have the knowledge: Do FLDS members consider themselves Mormons? I have long believed that Mormonism is not a Christian faith because they believe that Jesus and satan were brothers, that God took human form, came to earth and had relations with Mary, that by good works a man can have his own planet and be married in eternity, and that when Mormon Doctrines and Covenants contradict the Bible, the Bible is overruled. But now i’m wondering – are these FLDS beliefs and not main stream LDS Mormonism? Or are these not the beliefs of any sect of Mormons?

Dr. Walter Martin was one of the leading and most respected Christian apologists of the 20th Century. A brilliant and compassionate scholar, his writings and other lecture materials are readily available.
Dr. Martin once made this statement: “I’m going to do everything I can in this century to undo what my ancestor did in the last.” Dr. Martin, who died in the 1970s, was a direct descendant of Brigham Young.

Kathy: How is Polygamy an alternative life style as you call it compared with divorce. In divorce and remarraige, it is being stated that this being have tried to make a life with the other being, had to many differences in which they could possibly just not deal with on a day to day basis, without it causing regular problems, harm to mental and physical health included. Polygamy is stating to the children, that multiple partners are just fine. They are stating silently, that even if a being cannot support what children and possibly other partners that they are already in a relationship with, it is alright to acquire more, just because they want to. It shouldn’t be allowed to be legal, anymore than drugs or any other irresponsible thing. Do any of them ever get jealous, feel lonely for one on one partnership of a deep love affair, and what does this say to the children….sex is common, and relationships are common…

I think when they finally do realize, these misguided males as well as females, are going to need support and help. They have so many children it sounds like that they need to hold a large meeting for all descisions, but this should be done one on one, with care and repeated discussion between each and every family member…this has to be confusing and scary to children… their whole life is tumbling down around them… whose going to pick it up… the ones they have been warned against… they can’t trust them… even if they are trustworthy… and do you know what it is like to loose your religion… your God… where to turn now… there is an empty hole in you that feels like a crater… you just want to close it and maybe hurt some one who did nothing to you… don’t see the truth… don’t, just can’t deal with it…if they are put in the world at the wrong age, they will loose part of themselves, possibly have a split personality… sorry for looking in the murky depths, but bless as many hearts as you can, cause if you don’t it will only get worse… BUT I do not believe the rapist of that sect should be excused… no wheres in any Bible of goodness, does it tell to molest another human being. It’s just plain wrong, and if its children, ITS JUST PLAIN EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is long, but I hope you bloggers will read it – please:
One of the most unforgettable books I ever read was MIG PILOT by John Barron. It is the true story of a Soviet pilot who defected to Japan and, later, to the U.S., in the 1970s.
Lt. Belenko was a perfect product of Soviet propaganda. He was, literally, the poster child. But though he never voiced it, something in his heart told him there was another truth. “All his intellectual life he had detected symptoms of a sickness in Soviet society, signs that something was fundamentally wrong….he never understood the underlying cause; he never discerned any logic, or pattern in all the failures, stupidities, cruelties, and injustices he observed.”
When Lt. Belenko was first taken into custody by western authorities, he was handed a bundle of clothes and two books: a collection of the works of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and The Great Terror by Robert Conquest, both in Russian. “Drawn by the lure of the forbidden, Belenko read curiously at first, then passionately, then as a man driven and possessed. He read through the day and into the night…caring for neither food nor drink, he read and reread well into the early morning of his third day until he was sure that one quest of his life ended in fulfillment.” To have read these works under Soviet rule meant a death sentence. But for Lt. Belenko, “The words of Solzhenitsyn reeked and shouted of the truth, the truth he long had seen but the fundamental meaning of which he never had fully comprehended.” For the first time in his life, he saw reflected in these writings the truth that had always been in his heart. He thought: “If everything they [the Soviets] said about communisim, about themselves was a lie, then maybe what they said about the rest of the world is also a lie. Maybe there is hope. Anyway I am free of it forever.”

Have Texas officials said publicly yet: (1) the caller has been found, interviewed and confirms she made the call, and (2) the phone number of the emergency call indeed came from inside the Compound? Just wondering….

I am so devestated by what is happening to these girls! My heart breaks to pieces, I wish there was something I could do for these children apart from praying for them. I can’t even begin to understand how the state is going to unravel what is going on in Texas and Utah. I am personally so greatful that an investigation is taking place and authorities are doing all they can to protect these children. Even with all that our resources and efforts can do how can we help these women and children who have been taught-molded to believe at the very core of there beings that this way of life is right? I would hope that Texas reaches out to the rest of the states for resources, people, wisdom, perfessionals whatever it takes to ensure these chilren and women are protected and provided for.

you all have answered my original question as to why the media refers to these happenings at a “polygamist cult” rather than at the FLDS conclave -so there is no association with the LDS. I didn’t realize the FLDS were a splinter group recognized by the LDS as crazies. I have never thought of Mormonism as a Christian faith because of what i have read about their beliefs: that Jesus and satan were brothers, that God came to earth as a man and had relations with Mary, that after death, man can have his own planet and be married in eternity, that when doctrines and covenants conflict with the bible, the bible is overruled. Are these FLDS beliefs and not mainstream LDS Mormonism? Or lies by anti-mormon writers, not the beliefs of any branch of Mormonism?

I appreciate the response, and I do not condone polygamy any more than I approve of extra-marital affairs, casual sex or any other alternative lifestyle that we are being asked to consider normal these days. I have been married to the same man for 33 years this October and all of my four children are his. We have never been married to anyone else, nor do we have children with anyone else. I think this is a beautiful thing when it happens. My parents are still married to each other after 55 years. But we have experienced both teenage pregnancy and divorce in our family as well, and so I am no stranger to the pain and disruption to the family that these events can bring. All I am saying is that the reality of multiple sexual partners (whether legalized or not, whether justified or not), teenage pregnancies, single parent homes, unwed mothers, deadbeat fathers and broken and reassembled families are the norm in this country, not the exception. I just want to know what standard we are using that says polygamy is any more an aberration of family structure than the others? And, I am also encouraging separating the polygamy issue (as repugnant as it is to most people) from the abuse issue (which should be more so). As I pointed out, polygamy cannot be blamed for most of our social ills because they exist in open society on a greater scale.

Rich, the beliefs you listed are mainstream LDS. And you aren’t the first to notice that the Eldorado group isn’t being called by its real name in the media. The Eldorado group came from Colorado City, Utah (and Hilldale, AZ – the towns straddle the state line). Historically, the Colorado City colony was called Short Creek. They were a part of the mainstream Mormon Church from the beginning (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). Brigham Young and his followers settled into the Valley of the Great Salt Lake in 1847. Young was a master colonizer – some of the early Mormon settlements include San Bernandino, California, Las Vegas, Nevada, Cedar City and St. George, Utah, and Mesa Arizona, to name a few. Despite Mormon Church efforts to rewrite and reinvent their history, the factual history of the Mormon people is unique and utterly fascinating. But make no mistake: historically, genetically, and doctrinally, the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints are tied to the Mormon (LDS) Church.

Rich Harrington,

Thank you for writing. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, what most people refer to when they say Mormon. The FDLS church doctrine does not reflect the belief of our church. They are doing their own thing. They have taken a few doctrines and have skewed them and in some cases making them unrecognizable.

For instance Mormons do not believe that polygamy is required for salvation. Even though early Mormons did practice polygamy, it was less than 20% of the population for just the years spanning 1840-1890. So certainly there would be a lot of Mormons who do not qualify there. We do not believe at all that God had relations with Mary. I am not sure if FLDS people believe that, but LDS people certainly don’t. Anyone who would think this is sadly misinformed. We believe Jesus and Satan are brothers in the sense God created them both; God being the creator of all things. Satan is the ultimate traitor and exact opposite of Jesus. I am not sure what exactly will happen after I die, but I certainly believe that Jesus Christ has provided a way for us to be reunited with our families again. Where did you learn about Mormons and their beliefs?

I would just like to say that Mormons do not like what these guys in Texas are doing. Their early leaders were apostate, traitors of our faith who were excommunicated for doing what they are doing today–taking “spiritual wives”. Since then they have broken their ties the to Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and they probably believe all sorts of things that we know nothing whatever about.

Kara, thanks for your response. I read several books maybe 15 years ago by Presbyterian, Methodist, Catholic and Baptist authors who cited the differences between “Christianity” and Mormon beliefs. They all agreed (contrary to Joseph Smith’s teachings) that the Bible is complete, that Father God was never flesh and bones, that man was not a spirit child in heaven before coming to earth, that man can never become God. You leave the door open to the man becoming God belief (with his own planet and eternal marriage) by saying that you don’t know what will happen after you die. You say that Jesus and Satan are brothers because God created them both, but Christianity believes in the Trinity -that Jesus always co-existed with God and the Holy Spirit. Not trying to comdemn the Mormon religion and the good works that Mormons do. Wanted to know if LDS & FLDS held the same tenets.

Skyking: What has recently come out into the light of day in Texas is a cult that is systematically raping children in the protected name of religion paid for by American tax dollars.

Americans are willing to work to help those genuinely in need. But the fraud and exploitation being carried out by this group – in, first, Colorado City, Utah and now in Eldorado, Texas – is almost without parallel. This group is opportunistic and has shanghaied federal and state dollars, evaded taxation and prosecution, and thrived under the “religion” umbrella of protection. As a nation we have a right and obligation to examine this situation with a magnifying glass and get to the root of how it came about.

Already on this blog, I have asked the question: why didn’t the Mormon Church – particularly if they claim to have no connection to this group – examine the compound in Colorado City and shut it down long ago? Why did the FLDS group pack up and relocate to Texas? I feel its valid to ask the Mormon Church about this because its leaders, as they have always been, are also the state legislators and the law authorities in Utah. They are all the one and same. Americans deserve answers.

The FLDS group has prospered on Utah’s southern border for over a century. Can you honestly tell me that the Mormon Church didn’t notice the millions of public assistance dollars going to Colorado City? Can you honestly tell me that they didn’t notice the airport, capable of landing Lear jets, being built alongside? Can you honestly tell me that they knew nothing of the mistreatment of women and children, including incest, battering, runaways, rape, and abuse? Where are the children born with birth defects? Someone on the blog asked, where are the little boys? Yes, where are they? These questions are why I have belabored the connection between the two church bodies. And I have the right to ask these questions because my labor and earnings have gone to pay for it. I also have the right to ask any question I want because I’m free. Would to God, those FLDS women and children were equally free.

And just personally, I don’t believe anybody has a right to rape children in the name of religion. Do you?

Wow…and I MEAN WOW! WTF!?! Seriously people, I came here to read an intelligent discussion about the story listed ABOVE. You people are off on a crazy tangent. There are some people who are making ‘ASS’umtions (no need to name names. *cough* ‘Mary been there’, ‘eyes wide open’ *cough*), and discussing crap that is HERESAY and has NOTHING to do with this story. Seriously people if you have a beef with the LDS church, the FLDS church, and/or ALL religion that’s just fine but it’s not the subject at hand. There is NO reason to be nitpicking about doctrine and who believes this or that (especially if your ideas have no actual facts to back them up).

I thought you people would be more concerned about the CHILDREN–YOUNG GIRLS–who are caught up in the middle of this huge mess. There is possible SEXUAL, PHYSICAL and MENTAL ABUSE going on (and yes there is quite a bit of proof to back this up. And NO, I am not referring to the “alleged” call made by an unknown 16-year old girl). Who cares what GOD these people believe in, ABUSE IS ABUSE! You people should be discussing the subject at hand and not fighting over doctrine and/or posting stupid theories or other stuff that don’t even APPLY to the subject at hand.

And so what about the whole POLYGAMY thing being illegal (Rape and abuse of minors aside)? Do you people ACTUALLY want people to be arrested for having sexual relations with other people (because that is all they are actually doing since they AREN’T actually marrying more then one wife–legally speaking). There are a lot of laws that are blatantly broken everyday and yet no one is actually arrested for breaking them. Homosexuality (homosexual acts) are also illegal in many states and yet no one is arrested for commiting them. What about all the people commiting adultery? Are they being arrested? Is the law stepping in and stopping them? HELL NO!!! Do I agree with this? Does it matter? NO!

So this is where I stand:
-Polygamy, I don’t really care so long as it is between consenting, legal adults.
-Abuse of any form, IS TOTALLY SICK AND VERY WRONG! Especially when children are involved.
-”bleeding the beast”, totally pisses me off! I am choking on my anger!
-going off on tangents in message boards, also ticks me off.

Kathy
You speak of polygamy as an alternative life style. To me, alternative doesn’t necessarily mean bad or good, just different. But, as any responsible being would have to acknowledge, having many partners, and children with them in this day and age, is neither practical or considered to be moral, regardless of whether it is polygamy or just having sex and babies without being married. I believe it is the degradation of society in part, a loose for this young country that says – In God we trust…One nation under God, with liberty and justice for all. How is that just to bring into this world, children you most likely can’t support properly, and very possibly know it before the conception occurs. Can you match God with, maybe I can and maybe I can’t, or I’m going to anyway, because I know I can get someone else to pay for it for me. It is such a bad example for humanity, when it is done in the name of Religion and a God.

Rich,
There is no doubt that Mormons do not believe in the Trinity. We actually believe that concept is not actually taught in the Bible. We see it as an explanation of what man has tried to explain as to the nature of God in the fourth century at the Nicene Creed. We do however believe we lived with God before the world was and Christ was God before he came to earth.

You mentioned that I left opened the possibility of being a God some day–We do believe that man will inherit all that God has some day. We believe that we will be joint heirs with Christ; never ever replacing or going above Him, but that if we are faithful, we will gain all that he has. That to us is the definition of being a God. What details that specifically means has not been revealed and probably won’t in this life. I believe Bible also teaches that we will become joint heirs with Christ.

We do concede that there are doctrines in our church that differ from other Christian doctrine, but we feel with all of hearts that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and we receive salvation through Him, and there is no other name for which we can be saved. All of our doctrine centers around Christ, and we devote our lives to Him, and this we believe gives us the common bond with Christians.

I guess you may still be wondering what FLDS people believe; I have no idea. If they would distort what Gods intends for marriage, who knows what else they would distort. All I can say is what they are doing is not just against the laws of the US, but they are breaking God’s law, and their leaders will stand accountable before God someday.

Penny
I think your right about most of it. I think religion is a way to bring a form of respect and gratitude into our lives, and doctorine is not the issue. I do believe that when you cross that line of marrying children off, to partners they themselves did not pick is a form of abuse.

Sorry to those discussing doctorine,
It didn’t occur to me that you might be trying to understand what makes the people think and act the way they do, so please accept my apology as possibly misunderstanding your motives.

Penny, your comments explain why the FLDS sect has continued to operate and prosper for over a century right under the nose of the Mormon Church/State of Utah. It’s because the Mormon (LDS) Church hierarchy has always been more concerned with protecting themselves and the Church’s image, than in protecting innocent women and children, many of whom throughout all these decades have been unwilling captives.

Everything you are outraged about regarding the FLDS church, I’m outraged about, too. And, as Americans, we need to know what the heck it’s all about. But you failed to notice our commonality of thought because of your swift and heated defense of your church. (and if I’m assuming you are a Mormon, than in this one instance, I am an “ASS”, rude though that comment was)

The bloggers here come from many different backgrounds, different faiths, and have different and freely stated opinions. That’s America. We offer up what we know, think, and believe. But there is a problem in Texas, and to know how best to deal with it and what we’re really dealing with, questions need to be asked about how it all came about. Wouldn’t you agree that that would lend the best understanding? We have a bunch of great people in Texas who are trying to deal with all this and to be able to trace the history would provide invaluable assistance to them. The FLDS sect didn’t happen overnight.

It is interesting that you would still continue to talk like you know what you are talking about. The FLDS Church was organized in 1986 (not over a century ago). The RLDS Church was started immediately following Joseph Smith’s death in 1844 but they never practiced polygamy. All other polygamist groups never adopted new names of the LDS church, they simply claimed to still be Mormon eventhough the Mormon church excommunicated them after they disavowed polygamy in 1890.

You need to check your facts! Go to this website if you want to learn more about what you porport to know. This is the official site of the FLDS Church! The Mormon Church has not been turning a blind eye to polygamy at all. They excommunicate them when they do it and have been all along. Don’t confuse the Utah politicians with the leaders of the LDS Church. Just because they are in Utah does not mean that they are all Mormon. Just like me, you lived there (we are not Mormon and neither is almost half of the population) but many are afraid that to lose any votes in a state that is sooooo heavily lop sided to the Mormon faith. So they will pander to whomever they have to. It has nothing to do with the Mormon Church dictating to Utah what happens. Contrary to what they think, Utah is not ruled by the Mormon church. Go to Temple Square and look at the kind of things that happen outside it. If the Church had its say, it would not happen. In the smaller towns, maybe yes….it is much more slanted to Mormon but don’t group the entire state into a lump like that.

You seem to continue to find reasons to slam the church and they are always the same. I do not understand why you keep spouting off facts that are simply false like you were there, you saw it all and you know first hand. I am beginning to doubt you were ever in Utah or that you ever even met a Mormon. You say one thing and write another. Be consistent at least. don’t fold to the Mormons that keep reply back to you….if you hate and despise them then say so. Dont make up crap just to try and make others hate them more.

They have done nothing to you….! Unlike Ana and others on this blog that had exposure the cruel actions of some of the polygamist groups, you have nothing to add. You just keep using this as a sounding board for you to slam the Mormons. Sad….truly sad….

And I thought you had finally realized it was not going to change the minds of those that haven’t already made up their minds one way or the other. Just like the Dallas Cowboys….either you love ‘em or you hate em! Cut and dried. I respect and admire the Mormons and I love the Dallas Cowboys. You could learn to do likewise with at least the Mormons. Unless of course you can add something that really is a true life experience you may want to share of how you were raped, abused or taken advantage by some Mormon elder or leader while you spent your thirteen years in Utah. Now that would be worth hearing! If it were true.

Oops! Forgot the link. Below is the link that belongs to the FLDS Church. Contrary to Expert Mary Been there (not sure where but obviously not here!), the FLDS Church is less than 25 years old!

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/ChartLinks/FLDSChurch.htmp

Here is another fact you might find interesting:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596

62.4% Of Utah is Mormon and only 41.6% are active Mormons (that go to church). I think that the diffference between those that are Mormon and those that go are the ones that are bashing the Mormons on this blog. Whatever the case…at least get your facts straight. While I never saw a need or desire to join their church….they have done nothing to me and 99% of what is written in this blog about them is baseless. They did practice Polygamy…yes….but that does not define who they are anymore than the debacle over the Catholic Child Abuse mess in anyway changed the truthfulness of that church to their members (if it did, then they did not learn to differentiate between doctrine and weaknesses of humanity). You cannot change your faith just because members let you down…the church has not changed just because a few did something bad.

Just stick to the issue…child abuse within this particular compound and stop throwing stones!

OH my gosh, it’s you again. Cuervogold, why do you resent the possibility that I just might know what I’m talking about? And while you may be right about the official name of the FLDS sect, THAT GROUP has been sitting on THAT GROUND at Short Creek/Colorado City since just about 1872 or soon after. It’s because of the water that is there. The Arizona Strip was grazing country (though certainly no longer) and water was the key. Short Creek was known by another name prior, but I can no longer recall what it was. Most all the ancestors of the group were from historic Mormon families.

And I DON’T HATE MORMONS. Quite the opposite. As I wrote in another blog, I hate the hierarchy of deceivers who have built a power and financial empire that masguerades as a church. That is my opinion for a whole lot of reasons and I’m entitled to it. I happen to be a very nice person and, usually, diplomatic. If I sound otherwise, it’s because of my fury about what has happened to so many hundreds and hundreds of women and children – innocents, all – in that sect, in the name of religion when it never had to be. That’s wrong and I AM furious about it. And I believe, and nothing will ever make me believe otherwise, that the mainstream LDS Church, historically the Mormon Church, had some hand in it – either overtly or covertly.

And last I knew factually, 94% of the Utah legislature was made up of wealthy Mormon men, all high-ranking members of the Church. If that has changed in recent years – which it may have – good. But since the beginning – I’m talking about 1847 and beyond until recent years – the Church leaders, the judges, the law, and the legislators were the one and same. Why do you think that Utah has the reputation of being a theocracy? It’s because that’s its history.

And so you’ll know: I’m stating nothing in my comments that is heresay or that I “heard from my cousin Bob” or something. When I’ve quoted from a source, historic or otherwise, not only have I held an original copy in my hands, but I have also bothered to have the information corroborated through other sources. Some things, I admit, I’m quoting from memory, but if I’m off at all, it’s not by much.

And Cuervogold, since you claim to know so much, answer this: When did the Mormon Church adopt the name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They have officially admitted to adding the name of Jesus Christ for the purpose of greater acceptance. And with the name change, did the church also change? I didn’t think so. And neither did the FLDS group.

And why don’t you just communicate – why the scathing and contemptuous words and tone? I’m not calling anyone names. And you suggest that I’m the one filled with hate?! Hmmmmm………

Mary:

Actually, you are wrong again on the count but not by much…it is a little lower than 90% but that is still a high percentage of the legislators that are LDS. But if you have been around them then you know that just like Catholics or Baptists, being LDS could mean various levels of dedication and conviction to the church doctrines. Not all of them vote the straight line. I do agree with you that the government (not the church, itself) did not do anything until the Olympic Games were coming into SLCthat was even bordering on dealing with what they had outlawed in the late 1800’s to gain statehood. A majority of the population of the state was embarrassed by the behavior of the polygamists and did not want to be defined by them in anyway. They had enough hurdles to overcome without dealing with that issue.

Just remember that our country is founded on a seperation of Church and State. The Church does not run the state (including in Utah). It just so happens that there is an overabundance of its members both in the state and the legislation. If they were all Baptist or Catholic would you be acusing the Baptist or Catholic Church of “turning a blind eye to that kind of behavior…even if they had made sure to excommunicate them and barr them from membership until they changed their lifestyles?”. Of course not. The government chose not to do a thing about it. Not the Mormon Church. That is all I am trying to say.

Keep in mind that that little renegade community that was growing down there in Colorado City was simply a group of people that just happened to form from a group that was excommunicated from the Mormon Church….that does not mean the Church still dealt with them on any level. Once excommunicated (unless the member repents of their ways) they are never allowed back in and considered never a member. Their membership is literally erased from the records. If you know as much as you say about the church, you would know that. So it comes back around to….don’t blame the Mormon Church for turning a blind eye to it all. It is not something the Church did, it is not something they are responsible for (anymore than the Catholic church…which by the way was the original church in Utah…..if you study the history…long before Brigham arrived in 1888. The Catholic Priests had several Catholic churches in that state years before).

I guess the best way to put it so you can understand what I am saying is that if you live in India, where the main religion is Hindu, it is highly likely that most of the legislators are going to be Hindi but that does not mean that they are all going to vote the same. It also does not mean that the Hindu religion is to blame for everything that goes wrong in that country. Likewise….because it is no wonder that there are so many Mormons in government in Utah, does not logically follow that they are all going to vote the same. They are normal people (most of them) and have minds of their own. The Church plays no role in their decisions. Early in Utah’s history….I grant you that the church did run the government. I mean come on….good old Brigham was the governor of the state for quite a while and the prophet of the church at the same time. But that changed and not long after he stepped down, the church seperated itself from politics.

I mean….in Italy the Vatican does not rule the country (granted it is a country all on its own but it is technically within the country of Italy and most Italians are Catholic. Right? So if Italy does something morally wrong does that mean the Catholic church is to blame. So on and so forth.

One has nothing to do with the other.

Cuervogold

It has nothing to do with religion….it is about sick, sadistic people preying on the weak and defenseless. This was your last line from your post: Comment by Cuervogold
April 11th, 2008 at 9:21 am

It is in the name of religion it is done, so it brings religion into it by default.

You are spot on there. It is hate and loathing for someone that feels the need to get so off the actual topic to say things that are really not necessary and truly vindictive. Stick to the topic and stop smearing the church. That is what you are doing. What does it matter if the Mormon Church changed their name? The Catholic church changed their name of their doctrine in the 70’s as well to Vatican II. Does that mean they had something to hide? Just stop getting sidetracked on smearing a good church and people. You obviosly have issues with this church and IT IS OBVIOUS. You are taking advantage of an opportunity to say things when people are primed to hear it. That is all. Admit it. You are right….it truly sickens me to hear you say the kind of “stuff” you do about them. And by the way….I am not male….I am female…so don’t let that intimidate you either! I am not a misogynist (since I am a happily married woman with children). Like you, I am not Mormon but unlike you…I am capable of accepting them even if I do not agree with them and I let bygones be bygones until they do something I feel they need to be called on. Simply put! People I love and respect are members of that church and are good upstanding members of society and they are as Christian as any of the rest of the Christian world. If you were truly involved with the church, you would not even try to argue that one. There is nothing to hide. Just grab a missionary and ask them what you want….they will tell you. So don’t mince words…come out and admit that you have an axe to grind with the church that has nothing to do with this incident. Something happened to you while you lived there that turned you sour on them. Just because some poor example of an LDS person happened to cross your path does not mean you encountered the prime example of what they are truly about. Shoot….Ted Bundy was born LDS and so was Gary Gilmore but that does not mean all LDS people are cold blooded killers now does it? Just stop judging and maybe people like me might stop throwing such harsh reprimands in your general direction.

I will back off because I am getting a little more bold with you than I should. You have a right to your opinion. Just state it as that or provide the link to back it up. That is the best way to do it. Just make sure that it is not a link to something that was created by an Anit-Mormon. There are enough in the mainstream media to back up anything real you want to state. Trust me…that is how I verified my stuff. USA Today, NY Times, Washington Post (not run by the Mormon Church or Anti Mormon Hate Groups). There are plenty non-partisan sources out there as well as the television stations and a plethora of interviews.

Also, please remember that just because a church is private does not mean it has something to hide. I don’t hear people freaking out because the world has not got constant access to the inner dealings of the Pope or any of the private (not secret) rituals of the Catholic Church. They likewise have nothing to hide. Same as the Masonic Order….they have nothing to hide but it is sacred, not secret!…Private not secret! Wasn’t it your Jesus that stated that you do not cast your pearls before swine? What do you think he was referring to? It was your faith and beliefs. It is those that are the most sacred things you posses and you should not spew them out for public ridicule or abuse. It is also the only thing no one can take away from you. I think that Judaism and their strong faith was the only thing the Nazi’s could not take away from those in the concentration camps…heavens knows they denied them everything else and took everything else away. The SS could even take their life but their love of their God and their faith in Him is what carried so many of them through to where they could survive as long as they did and many come out alive. Faith can move mountains but it is something personal that is not necessarily meant for public discussion and definitely not on a forum like this blog.

Just because people don’t make public their beliefs does not mean anything other than they value then more than to wave their beliefs out for possible ridicule. There is a time and a purpose for sharing that kind of information. It is almost impossible to convert someone by convincing them. It takes the presence of that Holy Spirit to manifest when things are true. That is speaking on a level much higher than something like this blog should contain. Keep the religion out of these discussions. That is all I am saying. I hate polemics (both politics and religion). Keep this on topic! Abused kids in that compound and what can be done to assist them.

Cuervogold:
Why do you have so many negative things to say to people? Can’t you find a kinder way to express yourself?

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 11:25 am
So many of you are simply afraid of something you do not understand. I can see it with the idiot that started talking about Muslims, and his identical twin that starting spewing crap about Baptists.

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

To Mary Been There:

Get a life, girl. I have no hesitation matching my wits against what you like to think you have.

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

To Rachel:

Hello….do you understand English? Are you literate?

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

I have to agree with Alex on that count. Who is fooling who here? Sounds to me like Mary Been There and poor misguided Dave don’t have the slightest idea about what they are talking about.

Comment by Cuervogold
April 10th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

To Kirk
Get your heads out of the whole you bury it in and learn a little bit about the world around you and you just might be surprised how similar many of you are and you might learn something that could strengthen your own faith and understanding of your God. (That one was on the last paragraph – Atleast you didn’t start out being mean that time)

Comment by Cuervogold
April 11th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Drovin:

Layoff topics you haven’t fully researched.

Cuervogold, I’m know what you’re saying – truly I do. But at one time, Mormons voted in a block, with church leaders dictating how votes would be cast. Then being accused of that, church leaders would walk in and say to those on the left, vote this way, and on the right, vote that.

In recent years, I know of non-Mormon children in public schools in Utah who were routinely injured by Mormon kids while the teachers turned a blind eye. I know of one teen girl who was roughed up in a hallway, her collarbone broken. In another town, kids tried to set a boy on fire. I heard this from their parents. I knew a Protestant minister whose phone was tapped. I knew an American Indian who wanted to begin a scout troop and was told by the Utah chapter that he couldn’t start it anywhere but in a Mormon church facility. Not true, of course. While these may or may not be isolated incidents, I state them because they suggest a culture that, even in recent years, reflects much of the historic atmosphere in Utah (or Utah Territory, Deseret, whatever) and the influence that the Church hierarchy wields. (albeit the hierarchy had nothing to do with roughing up kids, but something that was believed to be church-approved was being perpetuated in the acts. And kids don’t tap phones.)

Yes, I knew the Catholic Church was there early, as was the Methodist. It was a Methodist minister and his wife who spirited Ann Eliza Young out of Utah to safety. But Brigham Young arrived in 1847, not later as you’re saying (remember SLC’s “Days of ‘47″ celebrations?)

I hope, over time, there will be freedom of independent thought among Church members. But, as you know, their overriding purpose, a prophesy in fact, is world dominion. (you’re probably yelling about now) To me, however, that means that the peculiar and wonderful laws of America are perpetuating a GROUP’S mission, NOT American patriotism and loyalty to the USA. In other words, this country is a means to an end. Just my opinion….

But I do want to thank you for your references to Catholics in Italy, etc – excellent analogy and points all well-taken. Your words did make me see things a little differently than I have been. Time softens everything – we’ll see. But a major prophesy? Hard not to think about that….

Concerned….making it about religion is what will be the defense these animals are looking for. It is not about religion. Mormon is not FLDS. Period. Don’t confuse the issue here! Dont’ blame the Mormons for what is happening! Stick to the issue….the abuse! I have not strayed from that and trust me….you won’t get me to get sidetracked on that issue. But I do not get involved in these postings until I see that it is becoming so onesided that only your opinions are getting through (nor yours personally but those that keep trying to show a causative or negligency link between the Mormons and the FLDS abuse here). Keep in mind that is opinion….NOT FACT you all keep saying. Stick to the facts. Having the Mormon church assassinated in this blog is not going to make me not able to sleep. It is not my church. Even if it was…the world does not revolve around this. But to not present the other side (with facts and common sense rather than fear and loathing for what you do not understand) would not be very wise for a litigious person like myself. Yes…I am sure it is not hard to figure out what my profession is. It will also explain why I find it hard to see everything being so one sided. It is the FLDS that you all need to be angry with. Not the Mormons. Big difference. And with that in mind….the issue is what the FLDS church did, not the Mormon Church. So, yes…girls….religion has nothing to do with this so stop bringing it in as a main subject. Leave the Mormons out of your discussion. I am not the only one that finds it offensive. Aside from all the Mormons, I am sure many that don’t particularly care for them are sick of seeing people like me and the Mormons having to write stuff in defense of their beliefs. In reality what the “heck” (since we are talking about Utah), does it matter what you believe? To me it doesn’t mean a hill of beans. likewise…my beliefs should not be relevant in the scheme of things for anyone else that is not intertwined in my life. I don’t even know you. But that is the way it should be. I don’t care what you believe. But I do hate to see you slam another faith because you don’t believe in it. don’t try and hide behind this…..I don’t hate them….you clearly do….or you would stop trying to create a link between them. It does not exist. I am sure that just as there are some that claim the US Government and Bush (who had only been in office for less than 8 months) had caused 9/11 for alterior motives, there are people who will be creating the back up to support the scenario for the Mormons being the ones behind all this. Anything can be argued and if no one is there to defend it or dispute it….it will go uncontested and taken for truth. That is, why my dear, I make the good money I do….I represent the other side (right or wrong).

Cuervogold
Am I correct in understanding that for you the issue is about the abused beings that were on the compound for the FLDS’s? If you have an idea about how these beings could be helped, maybe you could start the discussion and others would possibly join in and expand upon your thoughts, until a positve direction has been achieved.

If religion is their angle, isn’t that where to start, to better know what has been programed into these abused individuals minds?

Concerned, did you write the comment, that if what is happening with the group in Texas is in the name of religion than it brings the discussion of religion in by default? If so, good for you. And it’s as true as it can be. Thanks for all your comments and for holding up a mirror to Cuervogold so that she can see her own.

I think I’m probably not going to write much more, if anything. Bottom line, as I already stated, we, as Americans, have a right to understand the cause and effect and history of what is unfolding in Texas. Period. And that’s for the good of the innocent and helpless individuals involved. Whatever has been going on within that sect that is unlawful – including fraud, whatever – must end.

And one more personal note: I did see some bad things happen in Utah, but it’s not the Mormon people I have a problem with, for almost all of whom I was in contact with were very kind to me. It’s the hierarchy I have a problem with and a culture that is being perpetuated. The history of the Church is very dark and I’m not convinced that all that was happening long ago has ended. Which, though I haven’t stated it, is one way to look at the FLDS group and their bold practices.

Mary:

I stand corrected….yes…you are right…it was ‘47.

Concerned

What…does the truth sting a little there? I have no axe to grind but I definitely can say that all too many of you people like to say horrible things freely without providing back up…..legitimate back up. So if you gets you a little “put off” that someone might respond with a little bit of indignation and add some sarcasm to it, maybe even a little anger, I say, deal with it…..you want to put your opinion out there, expect to get angry responses if it rubs people the wrong way. Not all of us see you as a ******* Ray of Sunshine, Concerned! Do you truly think that is harsh? Sorry, I’ll make it caustic….that is what might be better because I see that it does not seem to phase any one of you. You all say things that are unfounded simply to state them and feel you are in some way benefitting your readers by putting something out there that is totally irrelevant. There are so many other things you could write that just might be interesting reading. I would buy a gossip tabliod if I felt the need to read the kinds of things that lovely list you printed above posted on their blogs. This is a topic I find interesting (the abuse that took place in that compound). It is a very real problem in the midwest and it needs to be dealt with before any more people fall victim to it. Not just children but adults as well. It is sick and twisted people that do those kinds of things and I, for one, read this blog to look for answers not finger pointing in the wrong direction by those that only seem hellbent on slandering another church to further their opinion of said church. You are right….I have so little time to spend reading blogs and on Fox, they are normally really good. But when you get fatheads that want to use it to stray onto topics that are only self serving, then I am sorry (and I genuinely mean that), that you are included in that lot! You can spot them immediately….people that keep spouting defamatory information without back up (which If it comes from some ridiculous hate site or a site some other church created to smear the Mormons, then it does not qualify as valid back up, frankly).

You know as I start to read my postings, though….it does start to sound like I am on their side. I have plenty of issues myself with the Mormon Church but this is neither the place or time to list them. All out of a matter of respect for another’s belief.

So, in short….keep your religious opinions to yourself….not just about your church but also about the Mormon Church. If you want to slam the FLDS Church, then have at it, girl! They brought this on themselves the day they started practicing polygamy (which to me is totally unacceptable). But more so when it was discovered they were involving such young girls. That has my blood boiling and then to add the little minded comments going on in this blog that keep brining up the Mormons just makes me angrier. So again…..I am sorry you are in that group….but you are the one that seems to also keep feeling the need to “share” your assessment of everyone elses religious statements. I guess to a degree, you can accuse me of the same thing. So once again, I will sign off but I would like to think that you as well will do likewise as it seems you have not changed your tune….just different replies you are replying to. I at least took a two day recess. I know I am wasting my time and I think, honestly, so are you. So, Mary Been There and Concerned….have a good night ladies….I have no hard feelings for you both but it would be nice to think you left this blog for people who are really putting their suggestions or possible answers to the questions that are validly arising from this situation…did they do what they are acused of? what is going to happen to the young girls and boys? How it it all going to be funded?, etc.

And Cuervogold, if you’re an attorney, savagely attacking your opponent isn’t that swell an argument. I personally prefer a cordial offering of facts. A verbal assault might work in a courtroom, but on a blog? When there’s a discussion going on? Particularly when everything you’re accusing me of, for instance, is actually something you, yourself, are doing. Remember, verbosity isn’t the same thing as intelligence and knowledge. And hurling insults doesn’t open minds. And mine has just closed to you. By the way, if you’re an attorney, my occupation is very similar. G’night.

I believe it will take a long time, and alot of reinforcing the same views for them. Something as serious as a belief in a God, whom is the ultimate being in most peoples minds, whether it is correct or very messed up, is going to be hard to extricate from a beings psyche. I believe it will take indepth review of what they have been taught, alot of rationalization, alot of patience of the period in which they will neither hear, nor have the ability to address the truth of their situation, and finally alot of support, comfort and reinforcement of the fact that none of this is their fault. When you are taught of a God, even though you may finally not believe in that particular God’s actions, or that, that particular God even exists, your mind will return to its teachings, again and again, it will tell you things of what you were taught were correct, and to disobey, or to ignore, will possibly mean severe retribution. For the survivors, I believe there is so much work ahead of them. It will take a humanitarian, not just a psychiatrist to treat them…Dedicated and caring…But it also would be of great help to have a caring America to support them.

Concerned:

Very good point…you are right…I have not brought up any points about how to fix the problem. That is mainly because I am not brazen enough to think I would even begin to know how to fix it. I did state that they would need medical, physical and emotional assistance but even more, psychiatric counselling, serious counselling that would start with deprogramming. But I am more interested to see if there is anyone out there that has lived this….really lived it and can give insight into it….not blame an organization that is not even involved in it. There was one woman that was doing just that but she stopped posting. I found it compelling to hear her side. I read this to get that kind of insight. Not waste my time reading postings by people that want to just write Anti Mormon crap. It is about these polygamy compounds. The horrible things that happen. Why it happens? how it happens? Where to go from here? That is valid topics for this blog. Not religion. As many so eloquently stated it….religion has nothing to do with this. There is not a God in this universe that would condone His members participating in this kind of behavior. Agreed? Making this about religion is the very argument the FLDS church will try to hide behind. Blogs like this would only serve to further that belief. Most of us that read this blog are more interested in what happened in that compound and what to do about it. But it is irritating to see so many get caught up in the other easier way to go…bash the Mormon involvement (that realy does not exist in this case).

Mary:

You seem to be an intelligent woman with a lot to offer. But I can also see that you have sadly become so terribly jaded on the church as a whole just becuase you happen to live so close to these “people of the corn” that lived in Colorado city. You did say that is wher eyou lived and that you knew the Jessop family personally, correct? Was that you? Well, I can assure you that I have met people in many parts of that state (I have many friends and relatives in Duschene, Brigham City, Provo, Salt Lake, Logan and many other parts of the state) over the past 40 years (as I was 17 when I lived there and I will be 50 this November). I lived there eleven years. I can honestly say that I did meet some people there that were pretty “stepford wife” in behavior (no more like originally stated….”children of the corn”. But normal people (all Mormon) far outweighed the strange ones. It was also in the far remote recesses of the state where that kind of people lived. That is not typicaly of the rest of the state. It has been a pleasure, though, “blog sparring” with you, girl! Stick to your guns…you are entitled to your opinion….just try and temper it with facts is all.

Thanks and have a good night, Mary Been There! You too, Concerned.

Cuervogold

Concerned

What…does the truth sting a little there?

Why not make it a discussion, thats what they were doing.

Cuervogold
You call it brazen…we call it trying to think of a solution to help. Thats what people do when they feel trauma, and wish they could solve it. Stop being so MEAN!!! Try helping, not being sarcastic. You preach about not discussing religion, yet thats all you do… but hatefully and attacking. Why??? You need care your self. I’m sorry. But we all do in one way or another, and attacking isn’t the solution.

Wow, Cuervogold, you were nothing but an agitator. That was your purpose for being on this blog. You know, that’s kinda slimy. What was it about? Practice for the courtroom? And to be honest – although I still don’t know for sure – I didn’t think you were an educated person. Just a combative one.

Concerned, you on the other hand, are a very, very nice person. I’m going to be praying for the whole group in Texas, and I hope you will, too. After all, the men, though perpetrators, were also victims of a sect they were born into. Who knows? There may be a whole new healthy life soon for them all. Hope so. Concerned, take care…

Concerned:

I guess I had to reply to your last post….it was not a discussion about the compound and the abuse there when I would reply…it was about the Mormon Church. That is not what we are all reading this blog for. Some are reading it just to find a tie between the two and that is evident. They come on….read it, reply once about the link between the two and voila! gone! But the real good blogs are about the solutions and the problem at hand. Not religion! You had some very good suggestions about the issues facing the “healing” those kids would go through. The women as well (and the boys that were lost/kicked out of the community). I guess I just hate religious discussion. If I liked it…I would have joined one, right? But I also hate to see one get slammed in such a harsh manner (and unwarranted, I might add).

I have to admit, though, Concerned…my mother in law is Catholic. She was the most devout Catholic woman I ever met. Went to church faithfully, always said her rosary (heaven’s knows she wore them out on my husband and I), and she always talked about how she loved her priest. It was standing room only to go to Church and hear his sermons. He was truly popular. This was in Ft. Lauderdale in the late 90’s. But when the pedophilia amongst several priests that seemed to span further back as the time went on surfaced, she stopped going to church completely and rarely spoke of it. One day I caught her crying in her room. Her sister had a heart attack and she was concerned about her faith in dealing with the heartache. I was as amazed then as I am now with this. Just because the church had a few bad apples does not mean that the entire religion is bad. It was so sad to see the devastation that it caused the Catholic Church. It not only lost so much money in donations but it also lost so many of it members due to this scandal. But the fact still remains….the doctrine did not change….people are fallible but if you had faith and believed in the doctrine, then the church is still the same church. She still does not go regularly but at least she goes on Sunday and does her rosary daily again. I guess what I am trying to say is that while I feel the Mormons have a defense for the polygamy they did years ago but stopped (for whatever reason), the FLDS Church does not. That is strictly about their actions, not their doctrine (whatever that may be). Does that make sense?

I really do have to go to bed. I am eastern standard time and my husband is getting angry with me.

Good night and be good!

Mary been there
Thanx, and I do pray for them daily

Cuervogold
We are grieving, and this helps them to grieve, and maybe understand. You say they are attacking, but maybe they are stating facts the best they can. I don’t know which one, if any of you is correct about the Mormon’s doctorines, but this is a blog for discussion, and stating things in a rough manner does not change even one fact.

I think that some people can start out with it being religion, but their own psyche gets involved, and they start to interpret things from their own mental filter. Their ego, and filter can make a really murky mess of what should have been kept at its upmost reverent. I think that might have been why religion was created in the first place. We need to keep trying to be our best, that way our own healthy ego’s can feel supported, which truelly is part of what we need for a healthy balance. But, I think it all got messed up when the desire to be the best, or/and the most powerful, or/and respected, came into play. I do think it might just be possible that some of the abusers are mentally deranged, not just evil. Its so very sad when one as selfish as a pedophiler, takes away anothers ability to celebrate their faith. But atleast she is blest by the goodness of her own soul. I wish I could say something that could bring comfort to you and her, but what she went through was grieving, and grieving doesn’t have a set of rules, but is dependent upon her own psyche. Give her support and Love, this is the best thing you can do to help her right her own balance, and be able to reach out to her faith once again.

Once, when I was growing up, I asked my mother why there was war. Because, as I reasoned, “Who wants war? Nobody wants war!” My mother turned to fully face me and said, “Don’t ever underestimate the thirst for power.”

Power, control, and wealth. That’s why the Catholic Church sat on their pedophile priest problem for decades, attempting to cover it up and silence those who were harmed. And that’s why the Mormon (LDS) Church did nothing to investigate or stop the abuse by their first cousins on the southern Utah border. They didn’t care how many people (like your mother in law, Cuervogold) would have their faith shaken, or lost, by their lack of action – and not just the souls of the broken victims. In fact, their lack of action proved implicit consent. That’s why your mother in law fell away – she could not separate the pedophilia from the hierarchy that knew about and allowed it. A hierarchy that cared ONLY for its power, intact image, money flow, and control over church members. In the end it was about them, NOT about their followers. By not acting in a swift and decisive manner, and despite their efforts at damage control, they lost immense credibility and support, as they should have. But worst of all and last on the list of concerns, were the countless hearts broken and souls lost. The payment for all this is out of our mortal hands, but it will come.

One more point: Both churches illustrate the problem that when a church body places itself between a soul and God, they muck it up every time. There are bad apples in all religions, but a bad apple should never cause anyone to lose their faith. Sin is in the world and minds get twisted. The fault for both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church is that the power structure they’d formed, and the influence they held, were more important than the souls they led. While churches have a wonderful leadership and teaching role, ultimately your relationship is with God – if indeed you believe in God. It’s between you and Him. No middle man. It is not God who raped any of the Catholic or FLDS children, it was sinful man and ponderous church bodies that were looking out for themselves.

Dear Concerned et al,
The reason I persist in making the case that polygamy is no more immoral or disruptive of the family structure than divorce, remarriage, teen and unwed pregnancies, civil unions, etc. is because I believe that the standard of monogamy (which I live by) is no longer relevant to most Americans. I think it is prudent to admit, while we are considering the ramifications of putting these children in foster care, that there is risk to children EVERYWHERE in America. We have 12 year olds having babies in our junior high schools. We have children abused in foster care. We have children in temporary shelters. We have actors and actresses, athletes, and politicians of the highest rank who daily give messages that sex with anyone you choose is ok and will be tolerated by America, even supported by America. And that is not even to mention the children who take weapons to school to kill other children. Tell me I’m wrong somebody. I think the FLDS should be investigated and charges filed where appropriate. But, to say that they did what they did under the auspices of religion is to leave the rest of America without excuse. This is a wake up call for us. We are so worried about these 400+ children, and we should be, but this country has a seemingly irreducible number of perverts, and they are not all behind the walls of a FLDS compound. Our children are just as vulnerable, and we have Hollywood, lax morals, incompetent institutions, and fragmented families to blame. And, ourselves of course. We can’t protect our own children, what makes us think we can protect these? Our country needs some serious come-uppance, and if we don’t do something soon, we may get it.

OK…

Lets get this out there, this blog is about the sect in Texas, they were abusing children, they will be punished, and rightfully so. I sincerely hope and pray those children are taken care of and protected.

But I see a lot and a lot of mormon bashing, I have many friends and family that are mormon, and they are fine upstanding people, with a strong belief in god, unyielding family values, and the best examples of living a Christ like life.

So it saddens me to see them trashed by people spreading hate, who cares if they don’t believe the same as you? who cares if their church collects a lot of tithing (many mormons are very successful) who cares if they believe in another book besides the bible? who cares if they call themselves christians?

Does any of that affect you? no, none of it does, not one bit of that affects you.

Mary been there, I am now going to hold you personally responsible for every crime committed within 1 mile of your residence, you seem to think the mormon church has the authority to investigate another religion (they don’t) and so you are now bound to investigate every person and activity within one mile of your house….sound ridiculous right?

You want my opinion now? yes the mormons are going to hell, they believe in the wrong jesus, the JW’s are going to hell too, they believe in the wrong jesus, the catholics are going to hell, because, well, they believe in the wrong jesus, the non-denom’s are going to hell because well, they believe in the wrong jesus, the baptists, well, they almost got jesus right, but they are going to hell too. the agnostics are going to hell because they don’t go to church, the muslims are definitely going to hell because of 9/11, the hindu’s well that wacky bunch are all going to hell, the 7th day adventists, yep hell, as a matter of fact, there are only about 1000 people going to heaven and they all lived 2000 years ago, when the real jesus was giving out passes.

Am I going to hell? absolutely, and you all would be better off to accept it, because it is impossible to believe in the “right jesus” with our limited knowledge of the man, I mean there were a few things written about him, but only about 3 years of his life, he lived into his mid 30’s and we know very little about him between his early childhood and what was his “ministry”

The things we do know about him:

1. He preached completely different principles than what god had commanded earlier (eye for an eye, to forgive and forgive)

2. He was a 30 year old with no job, yeah he trained as a carpenter, but it wasn’t like he worked anywhere

3. He challenged the “normal” thinking

As a matter of fact, he is beginning to sound a lot like my unemployed brother-in-law, maybe I should rethink my kicking him out of my house and instead worship him.

There is that little thing about jesus getting crucified, I suppose I could just beat the bro’s arse and see what happens.

Do you people see how ridiculous you all sound?

Thanks Shot for injecting a little humor. You were trying to be funny, I hope? You’re sure we are not already in hell? Sometimes it’s hard to tell.

Wow, you girls went at it all night.

So yeah, I LOVE how I automatically HAVE TO be a member of the LDS church just because I think this discussion (that has gone off on a twisted little tangent) is stupid and serves no purpose to the actual topic at hand (mary been there, you make a lot of assumptions that have no basis on reality). By the way, what religion I belong to is irrelevent to the topic at hand. I didn’t know one had to state what religion they belonged to before chiming in on a subject. What else do you need to know about me? My race? My political views?

I didn’t understand why you are going after the LDS faith when they CLEARLY have no control over a funamentalist branch that believes the LDS church is wrong. Seriously, do the research, the FLDS want nothing to do with the LDS church because they believe that the mainstream LDS church is misguided.

And the law in Utah and Arizona DID try to go after the people in those polygamist communities. Yeah they didn’t raid the place but they were able to do a little. BTW, the raid on those towns in the 1950’s outraged a LOT of people across the country. It was a public relations nightmare for all involved because the media sensationalized it and made the women and children look like victoms of the LAW instead of their abusive husbands and fathers. You think anyone really wanted to go through that again? Even then, did it STOP any of the abuse? NO!!! The people regrouped two years later and kept up their lifestyle.

WE DO LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES, and you can’t exactly FORCE people to stop worshipping in whatever way they chose. You can go after people for abuse but before that happens, you have to have PROOF of such abuse. You can’t just go into a place weilding guns without any real evidence. Yeah they did it in Texas but there is a possibility that what they did was illegal. Because of this, SOME or even ALL the evidence they found might be thrown out of court. Thus making it more difficult to convict these people of anything. See how that works?

Mary been there, if you are looking for anwers, do some research. You do own a computer that has access to the internet. You are sitting at one RIGHT NOW. And no, I wouldn’t equate posting your theories here as doing any research. And no, I wouldn’t consider a message board to be a great source of information. You see, there are a lot of misinformed people on message boards spouting off a bunch of stuff that has no basis on reality.

I do believe that your little theories are meant to misguide people and not (as you claim) to get answers of your own. If answers to your questions is what you wanted, you wouldn’t be wasting your time here, you would be doing actual research. Even then, it seems like your mind is pretty well made up here. No amount of fact finding would actually change your mind. You are obviously hellbent on going after the LDS church leaders over something they have no control over (innocent until proven guilty–We live in the UNITED STATES, not communist russia). Find some actual proof that there is a connection between the FLDS and the LDS church and maybe people will listen to you.

And if you want to talk about dark history, MOST or dare I say, ALL religions have a dark history. Do some actual research and you will know what I am talking about. There is a reason a lot of people aren’t religious these days–they did their research and most/all religion doesn’t sit well with them because of the dark history religions have.

thanks kathy, I was mostly kidding, I am still beating the bro in laws arse, just to see what will happen, don’t worry, if he ascends into heaven or anything, I will make sure to post it on youtube

Well, just be merciful about it, Shot. I think the right Jesus would want it done that way.

kathy,

but how does one know the “right jesus”? I mean, muslims believe he was a prophet and so do the jews, catholics have the longest running relationship with him, all the rollers out there say they know him through the “elvis experience”, that is the feeling of the spirit through electric guitars and drum solo’s, baptist say they have him cornered, but what baptist? I mean there are thousands of different baptist faith’s, are they all right? does god change church to church? we have the mormons and JW’s going door to door, claiming they know him, you have the 7th days that are the only ones that keep the sabbath day holy.

I mean, it’s crazy, and I start thinking that only people on the jerry springer show, really care, then I come in here and I see a modern day salem witch trial on the mormons, with people spouting left and right, things that I KNOW are untrue and then making claims about thing impossible to prove….my jesus is better than your jesus.

Alright, here is the deal, we can have a jesus grudge match, we will have all the different jesus’s line up and only the real one will win, all the other imposter’s will be dammed, along with their followers.

Are you really willing to stake your soul, everything that you are, on the belief that your jesus is the best jesus?

I for one, just accept my fate, I have been to hell (twice) and you know what? I thrive there.

I wonder if the woman in Vermont who drowned herself and her children was a member of the FLDS church?

Concerned,
That of course is an option, but the larger picture I am trying to paint is one that recognizes that we cannot ensure that, even in foster care, these children will be better off than being sent home with their mothers on the condition that they attend public school and CPS is involved in ongoing assessment of their mental, physical, and psychological well-being. I promise you that the church has enough money to support them, and if properly prosecuted and convicted, the men will have the incentive to stop this outrageous and criminal abuse of underage females even if they do not cease to engage in spiritual polygamy, which as you can imagine, will be difficult to prove or distinguish between that and other women who choose to bear children outside the bonds of legal marriage. And, I want the plight of other under age girls who are having babies all over America to matter to someone. We agree that our children are the future of our country, but we are failing to support and protect them in a myriad of ways and we, as a nation, need to come up with solutions. There is nothing happening behind those walls in El Dorado that is not happening in practically every city in America, from under age children being forced to have sex to welfare fraud. Clean up the FLDS community, certainly, but don’t stop there.

Ifti
What am I concerned about — well, originally I came on here to find a picture, I hoped, of the girl whom called a situation in to the authorities. Then, I began to read some of the post’s on this site. I am an agnostic, that has seen some of what religion can do. Its not very pretty sometimes. But, I also believe it can be a wonderful tool for comfort and healing. I am interested in peoples opinions on how to help this situation, but maybe none of us know the complete answer, although, I do believe the more we can learn from each other, the more benefit we can be should a situation present itself in which we have acquired useful knowledge.

I think the difference in sleeping around, and having babies vs. polygamy and having too many babies, is that those people sleeping around are not trying to hold it up to the world that what they are doing is a spiritual endeavor that should be considered something to be respected and followed. They are simply doing, because they have an hormonal drive to do so.

I do believe your right about the problem with children in America. I think that a parenting class should be manditory for a sophmore in high school, as well as an advanced class in the psychology of parenting. Something their parents needed to raise them in a more beneficial manner as well.

Sorry: as well as an advanced class in the psychology of parenting. I mean’t to say that an advanced class in psychology of parenting should be offered to those who wish to take it.

What about a night course for adults who want to improve their parenting skills. Couldn’t we get that through out the country. We had the no children left behind act, why couldn’t we have something offering the parents of these children, enlightening ways to deal with the situations that their children are involved with. I think there are plenty of parents that care, but just don’t know how to deal with things, so they look back at how they were dealt with, and say if it was good enough for my parents and me, then its good enough for me and my kids.