Adam,
I am a Roman Catholic, and a few weeks ago I attended a mass in my hometown. The pastor gave a sermon which questioned the validity of Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden both claiming to be “Catholics”.

As you are aware, the Vatican issues it’s rulings based on divine guidance. That is the core belief of our church, and coupled with the Blessed Sacraments, make up the most important disctinctions of what it means to be a Catholic.

The Vatican has ruled clearly that life begins at conception, and that abortion is not allowed. Now, Pelosi and Biden have the right to separate their views for the benefit of partisan politics, or to somehow think that the right to choose requires them to step away from their faith.

Two problems with that: first, it indicates that their faith is lacking in a rather profound way, and second, at least in the Roman Catholic church, you cannot get your religion ala carte.

Respectfully,
Slim Buttes

What is so wrong for a preacher to state his views from the pulpit? If you don’t agree with his “opinion” then don’t attend the church. Religion is in every aspect of a believer’s life, not just compartmentalized for Sundays.

This ‘bailout’ is America’s new crazy brand of ‘Socialism’…without any of the benefits!

Nationalization of AIG, makes the US government owner of the world’s largest insurance company with $5.5 trillion in liabilities.
Nationalization of the finance industry, increases the debt to American citizens to $14.8 trillion.

And all the ‘players’ both past and present will continuing to reap $$$ rewards!
The other 95% will continue to lose pensions, 401k, insurance benefits, security benefits, paychecks and homes.
No wonder citizens hate their government so much… 18% approval rating and ‘crashing’.

Allowing this ‘bailout’ to go forward will forever brand the American citizen as a …..
Well! You fill in the (blank).

It is a poor law, and has been used to stifle free speech. Its origins are suspect. As a pastor though I question the wisdom of doing this. I think we should speak to the issues, and encourage our churches to vote from a biblical worldview.

My fear is that the mission of the church will be diminished, not that the public square will be breeched. What barriers to the Gospel go up when Christians, and evangelicals in particular are seen as politicized.

So I say the law needs to go, but would encourage pastors to stick to the issues, and if they want to endorse – do it from a blog or in personal conversations – so if people want to know they can ask or can go read the blog. I don’t feel that political endorsements are appropriate from the pulpit, but shouldn’t be illegal either.

I personally do not want my Rabbi telling me how to vote. He should stick to religion and leave the politics at home. A religious organization should not be tax exempt if it preaches politics.

Regardless of all this please publicize the removal of the “Mark to Market” rule and replacing it with 3 years average…this will solve the current issue with credit freeze immediately without any congressional approval. I feel that because of lack of undemanding the executive branch and congress are stealing from the public..Please, please publicize the removal of “mark to market” it is wrong.
Safwat

The problem here is the distinction between church/politics results in confusion. Neither should “tresspass the boundaries that define their legitimate sphere of influence.”

I would not want my Pastor to tell me how to vote any more than I want my work place to (unions). I have been at my Church for 20 years and after that time I know what he believes (hello Obama). He has said, like Shane above said, vote with a Biblical perspective.

On a lighter note my hometown paper in Michigan today has this headline on the web site:

“Obama to encourage registration at MSU stop”

When I first saw that I wondered why he would want to stop registration of students at MSU, after reading the article it said that he is encouraging registration at his campaign stop there. Funny headline.

Adam, I’m not sure where my post is from yesterday, but i apologize if this is duplicate.

Shows you what i know, i didn’t know this law existed.
Interesting story. Hubby and I talked a long while about it last-night.
I agree with what Barb wrote, after so many years, it goes without saying, we pretty much all know how our pastors/priests feel and believe. (hello obama and friends, AGAIN)
Where we are, we are pretty sheltered from any sort of radical thinking (yes, places like this actually exist). That’s probably why we never needed to know this was a question of legality.

Adam

Can you search your secret bin and see where all of our posts from yesterday went. Did someone flag us and throw us away with the spam???

and who is going to be backing up the Churches? To add on to Adam’s story and President Johnson’s Amendment~ Here comes litigation! $$$$$$$$$

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — Attorneys with the Alliance Defense Fund say they are prepared to defend the First Amendment rights of pastors who engaged in free speech from the pulpit on Pulpit Freedom Sunday Sept. 28.

“Pastors have a right to speak about Biblical truths from the pulpit without fear of punishment. No one should be able to use the government to intimidate pastors into giving up their constitutional rights,” said ADF Senior Legal Counsel Erik Stanley.

“Yesterday, 31 pastors participated in Pulpit Freedom Sunday, with two more scheduled to participate in the near future. Today, ADF will begin monitoring any IRS investigations that result from the participating pastors’ sermons,” Stanley explained. “ADF will oppose any attempt by the IRS to use the Johnson Amendment to remove a church’s tax-exempt status because a pastor exercised his constitutional right to engage in religious speech from the pulpit. The goal is to have the Johnson Amendment declared unconstitutional.”

Pastors participating in Pulpit Freedom Sunday preached from their pulpits Sept. 28 about the moral qualifications of candidates seeking political office. The pastors exercised their First Amendment right to preach on the subject, despite federal tax regulations that prohibit intervening or participating in a political campaign.

The event is part of the ADF Pulpit Initiative (www.telladf.org/church), a legal effort designed to secure the First Amendment rights of pastors in the pulpit. A document explaining what the Pulpit Initiative is and is not is available at http://www.telladf.org/UserDocs/WhatIsPI.pdf.

“If you have a concern about pastors speaking about electoral candidates from the pulpit, ask yourself this: should the church decide that question, or should the IRS?” said Stanley. “IRS rules don’t trump the Constitution—and the First Amendment certainly trumps the Johnson Amendment. Churches were tax exempt long before the IRS even existed.”

A list of pastors who participated in Pulpit Freedom Sunday is available at http://www.telladf.org/UserDocs/PFSparticipants.pdf.

The gentlemen in the second video– Americans United.. Now he made good sense! Politics do divide the people–

Patty–

re: to Lyndon B. Johnson and why-

The unwritten ban on political activity in churches can be traced back to the days when Lyndon B. Johnson was attacked as a senator by Southern Baptist pastors for his stance on civil rights. (Finance and Law)

Shane Vander:

Your video of the children singing for Obama was a point of conversation on another blog- We share your opinion.

Why is it pastors don’t have the right to free speech, but yet you turn on the TV and every celebrity is free to blast of their opinions? This is not a matter of Church vs State (which was intended to protect churches from the government and not the other way around), this is a matter of free speech – both sides deserve equal rights.

“The law against politics from the pulpit was introduced and supported by then Texas Senator Lyndon B. Johnson back in 1964.”

Does anyone remember November 22, 1963? Sure seems like Lyndon Baines Johnson was sworn in as President of the United States.

Oh wait… here it is as a fair use quote from Wikipedia…

“Johnson served as a United States Representative from Texas from 1937–1949 and as United States Senator [just as his grandfather[1] foretold when LBJ was just an infant] from 1949–1960, including six years as United States Senate Majority Leader, two as Senate Minority Leader and two as Senate Majority Whip.”

When you write an article, please make sure you have the facts correct. When you do not, everything you write becomes suspect.

Myth of separation of church and state?

No one raised an eyebrow when it was published that Senator Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama spoke from a church pulpit. I call that hypocrisy.

Is the issue merely whether a pastor espouses a particular pollitical point of view? Or is it somewhat broader, that the resources of the church are being deployed in support of one particular view or another?

With respect to the latter, I’ve always wondered how many, many black churches have been able to maintain their tax free status while providing platforms, audiences, etc. for liberal democratic candidates over the years.

In general, I think churches should keep politics out of the sermon, just as schools should keep politics out of the classroom.

I am well aware of this law about tax-exempt organizations. I question how it is Trinity United Church of Christ has maintained its tax-exempt status all these years. How is it that Jeremiah Wright and Micheal Pfleger get a pass? If we are to have laws at all, they should be applied uniformly.

That said, I never heard a political statement in any church I ever attended except for one church. I walked out with my family during the sermon. We immediately ceased attending that church. I actually generally agreed with the political position endorsed but not with where and how it was made. Friends visited us to persuade us to come back and I absolutely refused. As long as a minister sticks with the bible I have no trouble. If a minister takes a position on a current issue based upon the bible but does not name names or parties, I have no problem. Simply state the objection and the basis for it. Churches are places for discussions of ethical and moral issues, not partisan politics in my view.

Black preachers have been bellowing political rants from pulpits for years. For more recent proof, check Obama’s preacher, Jeremiah Wright, and his fellow-traveler Father Pfleger’s rants on youtube. No one has done anything about this violation of the law, nor will they ever.

Just for the record Lyndon Johnson was President in 1964. By the way, I wonder how many pastors of black churches have endorsed Obama from the pulpit? Just curious.

I agree with Clyde – we have a double standard here! Liberal and black churches can endorse their candidates and get away with it, but conservative bible-believing churches can’t get away with it.

Want to know the real reason? Jesus Christ!!!

I believe churchs should have the right of “Freedom of speech” to endorse anyone they one to….This is America. IRS should have nothing to do with their American right of expression…

I find it interesting that this subject has had a lot of liberal media attention lately. Not surprisingly their focus has SOLELY BEEN ON CONSERVATIVE PASTORS. For years, black churches in the U. S. have been solidly aligned with liberal causes and support for the democrat party. During each election cycle, Democrat candidates flock to these black churches to get out the vote.

Personally, I don’t think politcs should ever be preached from the pulpit but just looking at one side of the story is another of many examples of left tilted media bias.

Separation of church and state is so widely misunderstood and wrongly interpretted that the founding fathers of our country I’m sure would laugh. It was supposed to ensure that there would be no state sponsered religion. That’s all! Anyone should be able to voice their support for any candidate in a house of religion just as anywhere else.

Rev. Al Sharpton , Rev. Jessee Jackson – that’s okay !
Al Gore at California temples raising money.
Bill Clinton at churches all over the south.

It is only the conservatives that are violating the law I guess ?

The original premise for the so-called “Separation of Church and State’ was to avoid the tyranny of someone like Henry VIII, who single-handedly almost wiped out his entire family for refusing to agree with him on his religious views of killing and committing treason against the English state. Over the years, however, the left in this country has had a severe double standard whereas minority, AA churches for the most part, have wantonly endorsed Leftist Democrat candidates for office.
I remember six years ago when I was involved in a race for the State House here in Tennessee.
An African-American associate pastor, said he could get me a chance to speak in his church. I refused, not because I’m a racist, but because I didn’t want to become non-tax exempt.

The double standard here is glaringly apparent. Where is the same indignation when Rev. Wright of Chicago spouts political rhetoric? (clyde Oct 1st @ 2:08pm) is 100% right. Civil rights used to include Christians. Why do we have to tolerate all points of views that are to the left of center and Politically Correct, but not those of Christians who are so reactionary as to embrace common sense?

First of all, a pastor sharing his opinion about a political candidate from the pulpit does not violate the ’separation of church and state’ contitutional clause because such a clause does not exist and never has. While I don’t think it is wise for church leaders to endorse or denounce political candidates from the pulpit. Conversely, America’s churches are almost totally remiss in teaching the fundamentals of faith and their application to our culture both morally and politically. If political bodies would stick to governing and back out of legislating for or against moral issues as they should, then the question of the separation of church and state would never come up. Our founders had it right when they tried to prevent the state from mandating or sponsoring any particular faith but they also recognized the value of moral and religious principals in the formation and continuance of our form or government.

I have long seethed at the clergy who turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the stances of our politicians. If our true belief is something is sinful then it is our duty to speak out against it, not give it tacit approval via silence. Similarily, the politicians who say they BELIEVE one way and talk/vote another are just as wrong.

It has become the expedient thing to do…silence to maintain the tax exemption….hypocrisy to garner votes.

I like to think of a phrase I heard years ago….

Hold not expediency above the Lord thy God.

When you shut God out of a nation as the ACLU, Hollywood, the liberal media and most government agencies have or are attempting to do, that vacuum will be filled with just the opposite of decency, morality and Godliness. In all this awful moment of humanistic Washington, I have not heard one leader say that God should be called on! We need not worry about the IRS, pulpit politics or anything else if we don’t recognize the absolute necessity of bringing God into the equation.

The solution is very simple – get rid of your Churches tax exempt status, pay your taxes like the rest of us, then you can preach whatever you chose to preach. Can’t have it both ways

In the video Rob Boston eloquently addresses a totally irrelevant issue.

He speaks to the question of whether it is wise for a pastor to speak about politics in church. I partially agree with him that it is probably not a wise thing to do. At least the pastor has to be very careful about it and realize that there may be some people offended by it.

However, the real issue here is whether the government, through the IRS, should be the ultimate arbiter of what can be discussed in church. Any sane person who believes in the constitution should recognize this as a blatant attack on the first amendment. Let’s face it, the ultimate goal of Americans United is for the government to have total control over churches and to eventually shut them down altogether.

If the IRS was serious about shutting down churches that take political stands, there wouldn’t be very many black churches left open, especially this year. Why not start with them? O, let me guess….

swft boating=telling it like it is

I have not heard one political leader mention God in this current economic crisis. Humanistic solutions at this point are not going to work. Leave God out of any situation and the vacuum will immediately be filled with corruption, indecency and immorality of every description. Proof, you say?

Old Testament Israel, the Greek Civilization and the Roman Empire for starters! Don’t bring up the TV Evangelism, the cults, the religious loonies and the liberal media’s definition of Evangelicalism. Go back to the Puritans, John Wesley and the like … then begin your argument!

This is God’s creation and He will do with it as His Sovereign Will is exercised.

I am anti organized religion and would love to see all preachers etc silenced.

Of course “separation of church and state” does not exist in any Constitution in the world. The only Constitution that it has ever existed in was the former U.S.S.R. It is a communistic thought that has no place in a free society. The clause was magnified by Jefferson (who was a Federalist) in order to put restrictions on Congress excerting authority over the states. The states were to come up with their own laws. There was to be a wall between Congress and the states.

Pastors are United States citizens and are free to give their opinion the same as you and me. The only people opposed to this are liberals who don’t believe in a Holy God to begin with. The liberals will not be in church in Sunday as they are rounding up homeless people in Ohio to vote for Obama (this is a bit of sarcasm on my part but the part about gathering the homeless to vote for Obama is unfortunately true).

COMMENT:

LET THEM PREACH, BUT TAKE AWAY TAX EXEMPT. THEY ARE OPENING A DOOR FOR THE GOVERNMENT AND I DON’T BLAME THE GOVERNMENT. CHURCHES WANT THIS AND THAT, NOW PAY THE PRICE?

Faith is all encompassing – 24/7. You can’t push it aside or pick whatever parts suit the patter of the day. The Bible is clear on every aspect of life, including leadership. I see nothing wrong with a pastor, priest, rabbi or other religious leader evaluating candidates from the perspective of their faith and making that known to their congregations from the pulpit. Congregants either share those views, need to evaluate their faith or need to find another place of worship.

I see everything wrong in stifling the free speech afforded by the Constitution.

how come no one cared when the democrats did this? bill clinton was in many churches himself and no one cared. they only now care because they are against obama. disgraceful.

only a sheeple would vote a certain way just because his pastor said so.

Of course, that is part of our country’s problem. Too many sheeple, on both side of the aisle.

Personally, anything that keeps a socialist out of power in this country is fine with me. and if GW is heading toward the roll of President of United Socialist States of America, he can pack his bags too.

Anyone here familiar with the founding fathers understanding that freedom of religion is necessary in a democracy? If pastors want to preach from the pulpit, that’s their job. If they want to endorse a political candidate, they can do so outside of the house of worship.

As a taxpayer, I don’t want to subsidize through tax exempt status the likes of Pat Robertson, Johnathon Falwell, or any other religious hypocrites. As a graduate of a religiously affiliated university, I am familiar with the teachings of Jesus and see that being a true Christian and helping those less fortunate than you has been overridden by greed, selfishness and fear.

If the IRS are going after conservative mega churches for leaning to the right, let’s see if they go after Rev. Wright’s church in view of his incendiary political rhetoric. Something tells me that it is considered a greater sin to be conservative, Christian, and outspoken. If you are left wing, anti religious, and outspoken then your speech is protected. Short memory is encouraged.

From the First Amendment to the Constitution:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

Notice the “Congress shall make no law…” and the “prohibiting the free exercise thereof” parts. Stifling ANYTHING a pastor says is violating this.

I am all for pastors/preachers/priests speaking their political mind from the pulpit… just as soon as they renounce their tax exempt status and begin paying taxes like the rest of Americans. That includes payroll taxes for all their employees and property taxes for those lands, buildings, planes and bra factories they own.

Then they can enjoy the full rights and responsibilities of an American taxpayer.

And, while we’re at it, what about those who depend upon Welfare, especially 3rd and 4th generation recipients, for their support? That vote for Socialism has been bought and paid for, but it shouldn’t be allowed because of a conflict of interest. When they get off welfare their voting rights can be restored. If religious leaders can’t make political statements neither should other recipients of unearned Federal benefits.

Jefferson was very proud of his Statute of Religious Freedom in Virginia – memorialized on his tombstone. The principle is this – no man shall have his public stature diminished in anyway because of his religious convictions or practice.

We need to think carefully before we allow the force of government to overrule the freedom of the soul.

I agree with the separation of church and state. I am a christian and regular church attendee who thinks that a pastor can preach about having moral character, integrity, etc., (without calling names)from the Bible and then we as parishioners can pick the candidate we believe best fits what we want in our president.

It still amazes me that after all these generations and every conceivable form of government that has tried and failed to bring about a solution to mankind’s problems, those who SHOULD know the scriptures and teach their members, don’t. What is going on is fulfillment of bible prophecy. Jeremiah 10:23 states: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” Even if a politician were to get into office and make some positive change, he will never be able to defeat hunger, disease (pestilence), and erase the wickedness from people’s minds. He will never be able to bring the dead back to life. Jesus’ time on earth, his ministry and his miracles were a demonstration of what God’s kingdom would be like. He fed the hungry, healed the sick, raised the dead…. but his main focus was the preaching of the good news of God’s kingdom under the rule of Christ Jesus.

At one point, they came to seize him and make him king (on earth)- John 6:15 says: “Therefore Jesus, knowing they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.” He repeatedly said that his kingdom was “no part of this world” and on the night of his death, “Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another.” And Jesus himself explained why his disciples did not fight to deliver him, saying: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought . . . But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

So politics have NO place in true religion. True religion requires taking in accurate knowledge of God, it requires action on our part, not just belief and getting “saved” one time. Make no mistake. These times are fulfillment of bible prophecy. Mankind will not solve these problems. Matthew 24:21 says: “Then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” We are on the verge of that now. Contact Jehovah’s Witnesses for a FREE bible study or for information on where to attend a meeting where NO collections are taken or baskets passed and ministers are not paid, but volunteer, as did Jesus – he said, “You received free, give free.” We are not all on different roads leading to the same place. The bible says, ““Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.”—Matt. 7:13, 14.

Pastors should concentrate on preaching about God, that said, we all know that it’s done by both sides….look at Obama’s so called pastor, Rev. WrongWright he preaches hatred of whites and unpatriotic messages.
We always knew where Jerry Falwell stood, yet I don’t think he was very tactful when he said it.
The actors of Hollywood can say whatever they want to say and no one is passing laws to shut them up. Why? Cause the Hollywood elite is communist.
I think the politicians are actually the ones who say the least, cause if they told the truth, they’d lose.
Anyone who thinks there will be a tax cut after this bailout are kidding themselves.
Sure, they might cut it in year one, then raise it every year after that. (Both sides will say…I did give you a tax break…..)

Paraphrasing from Ecclesiastes Chapter 3, “In the language of the Holy Writ, there is a time for all things. There is a time to preach and a time to fight.” Thus ended the sermon of 30-year-old pastor John Peter Muhlenberg as he removed his clerical robes to reveal a uniform in the Continental Army. After church, 300 men of his congregation rode off with him to join General Washington’s 8th Virginia regiment.

Born OCTOBER 1, 1746, John Peter Muhlenberg died the same day in 1807. After hearing Patrick Henry speak the famous words, “give me liberty or give me death,” John Peter Muhlenberg approached General Washington and enlisted. Promoted to Major-General, he endured the freezing winter of Valley Forge and fought at Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint and Yorktown.

John Peter Muhlenberg was elected Congressman and Senator. John’s father, Henry Muhlenberg, was a founder of the Lutheran Church in America. John’s brother, Frederick, also an ordained minister, was elected the first Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives. Both John and Frederick served in the first session of Congress which passed the First Amendment. In 1889, Pennsylvania placed a statue of John Peter Muhlenberg in the U.S. Capitol’s Statuary Hall.

Many other tax-exmpt organizations are allowed to espouse political views (for example moveon.org) so why should churches be any different? What is fair for one should be fair for all. I don’t particularly care which way it is but the rules should be applied consistantly for everyone.

Giving to a church is not so different than giving to a non-profit organization such as Feed the Children, and many others. Their funds are used to help those in need and also support their effort.
When you pay your income tax (as does the Church), you can claim deductions for giving.

The First Amendment to the Constitution tells the story in place of our opinions. I have rewritten it in modern day language, no changes, just so it can be better understood. (check me out if you like)

Congress shall make no law concerning an established church, or prohibiting the free practice of secular or religious character thereof; or depriving the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for means of seeking a remedy, compensation for wrong or loss.

Bill of Rights: #1, Grants freedom of worship, speech and press, the right to petition the government and to assemble peacefully.

There is nothing in the Constitution that says a pastor can not speak freely. That has been broken and will remain that way until we the people take charge again. It also says that we can petition the government for this wrong but no one has offered yet. We just lay down and sulk. No free practice of religious character, speech. We are just getting what we deserve.